down again.....

for the past hour or so.

yep. still down.  weird!

Interesting feat choices,
and it's nice to see a good all-round pure BG build worked out.
Only a strong Mordor's Disjunction, I guess, would disable him, really, besides a failed save of course.

This is Kat's build, but she sacrificed the two epic focuses for 2 great strengths, and went scimitar for the +peform scim available at Isengard. 

One of the better 26 Bard builds I've come across for sure.

Some decent weapons and magical items seem to be good and/or evil only.  This is one way to do it, but it would be nice to revive the assassin class, as it's 1 of the 3 classes who get UMD, and uncanny dodge (and sneak attacks), and great dex as a bonus feat.  Lots in store for this class, except his main strength (and raison d'etre) is gimped to bits..

The only reason I would ever go evil would be Blackguard. Or if they made some really good weapons that were only usuable by good/evil. What's so bad about going good/evil? Is it solely because of smiters?

Where do Shields of the Night drop? and from whom?

Tower Shield = -10 Hide/MS
Large Shield = -2 Hide/MS

So you gain an effective +8 to both skills by dropping one AC.  If you get a Shield of the Night (+6 Large Shield, +6 Hide/MS) you effectively get +14 over an average tower shield. 

As for the change in AC by going strength based.  Here's what I'm getting:

I assumed 18 starting DEX with +6 from levels.

DEX: 10(Base)+6(+6 Robe)+8(+6 Large Shield)+13(36 Dex w/ +12)+6(Amulet)+6(Ring)+4(Haste)+4(Boots)+5(Tumble) = 62 AC

STR: 10(Base)+14(+6 Full Plate)+9(+6 Tower Shield)+1(Dex)+6(Amulet)+6(Ring)+4(Haste)+4(Boots)+5(Tumble) = 59 AC

So you'd lose an average of 3 AC assuming all other equipment is the same (I gave the strength version a tower shield because if you're wearing full plate I saw no reason not to - replace the Weapon Finesse feat with Armor Prof Heavy if you go str, in my opinion). 

i need a shieldring too. let me know pls if anyone wants to trade

what about making available items with up to +10 saving throw bonus to paralysis? 

we should save the assassins--we need more good/evil characters in middle earth.

I'm sure I'm not the first one to mention this, but I still think there are too many freedom items on the server.  

I'm still of the opinion that 99% of immunity-items (if not all) should be removed, so as to make good use of the Fear spell, for instance, or to make that casting of Shadow Shield or Death Ward as critical as it should be.

But my scruple at the moment is with freedom.  There are many spells and abilities made useless with this, and if anyone has freedom at all, I propose it should only be hard bosses and those naturally immune, and perhaps only those who have been so lucky enough to grab such a boss item, which brings with it severe penalties for such a boon.

An alternate strategy might be to change these immunity items to partial immunity (magical resistance, for example) or bonuses to saves (but not too much bonus.., as saving throw bonuses seem to stack anyway).

My main argument for this is:

Without immunities, the spell domains (evocation, necromancy, transmutation, illusion, conjuration, etc) were a bit more balanced (only somewhat in favour of necromancy, perhaps..), but the enchantment school for instance has been made obsolete with the introduction of : freedom items, immunity to dominate/confusion/fear rings, and even the transmuting wizard/sorc has called it a day after the profusion of mason's belts.  

The only offensive spells worthy of a powerful sorcerer, it seems, are few and numbered:  IGMS, chain lightning, horrid wilting, ice storm, negative burst.  Whereas there are so many more spells that could make PVP a lot more unpredictable and interesting..

But I don't think I have the best opinion on this.  I'd like to see what others think and perhaps encourage a discussion, to see what a good balance on this server might possibly look like.


My view:  Limit immunity items, if any, to castings of death ward or shadow shield (or freedom of movement, etc), at a use/day *or charges*, and perhaps at a decent lvl casting (say, lvl 12 or so).  Give these items multiple uses, if possible, the Fell Bracer being a good example of a well-made item (3 Shadow shield/day).  That's the best I can come up with at the moment, ... items which only replicate the use of regular defensive spells.  I think this would make PVP more interesting, and give all classes/builds a better chance of defeating their enemies fairly.

Cumulative ability bonuses and dragon-like abilities would have been what I'd have vouched for (as breath weapon and AC are already taken care of).

More const, str, int, and cha, for instance, would be sufficient for my taste.

Lvl 2:    +2 STR
Lvl 4:    +2 STR
Lvl 7:    +2 CON
Lvl 9:    +2 INT
LVL 10: +4 STR, +2 CHA
LVL 12: +2 STR
Lvl 14:  +2 CHA, +2 INT
Lvl 16:   +2 STR
Lvl 17:  + 2 INT
Lvl 19:  +2 CHA
Lvl 21:  +2 CON
Lvl 24:  +2 STR
Lvl 27:  +2 CON
LVl 30: +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 INT, +2 CHA

That's a total of 42 ability points by Lvl 30 RDD.
(18 STR: 8 CON: 8 INT: 8 CHA: 42 points)

Compare that with 14 ability points raised by lvl 10 RDD.

(14 * 3 = 42) : for 30 RDD lvls


Consider the sacrifice necessary for 30 RDD lvls.  the only skills you can maximize might be search, discipline, and not much else.  It's hard to be uber in 10 classes of anything else.  Hence I saved a comparatively whopping boost for lvl 30.  But it still doesn't seem enough.

Now give the lvl 30 RDD some interesting and seductive feats or abilities, and it just might be worth building?

The Dreaded Dracolich:

AC (hasted): 54

AB: 52.

 

[is]

The "unkillable" argument for the dracolich can go just as well for the PM, if he/she spams healkits, right?

So if this is the issue, it's a completely different issue altogether than the dracolich's fifty-something AB and fifty-something ac, isn't it? The pure pm is at about 84 ac, and can have a decent amount of discipline, it was found.  It's simply an annoying toon to kill.  But on the other hand, you can feel mighty safe 'cause there's no way he can hurt you without his crap-dc greater ruin or self-defeating hellball.

And the PM summon was SUPPOSED TO BE the best summon in the game, just as in the original HotU.  If the other summons are improved, there is a very good argument that his be improved *at least* on the same *scale* (have to be lvl 40, and 30 pm to summon it).  This can't be denied.  The fact that he had to run a gauntlet of his own to get to lvl 40 is another thing to consider when determining this.  Hence the summon ought to be *special* in some sense, something to make it worthwhile, as otherwise there'd be no incentive at all to get there (in the spirit of encouraging pure builds, hence a diversity of builds, not the same dragon, not the same shifter, not the same barbarian, or pm, you get the picture).  What was great was this build was new.  It was unique, it was great fun to those who got there, and a lot of tinkering was possible with a dash of arcane ability.

So, everyone. Why infringe upon the PM's chance to farm as well and for its summon (not itself) to be improved like many of the other classes here (barbarian, shadowdancer, blackguard, shifter, wiz/sorc, etc)?  Let's improve the playing experience of our toons, and not try to make it worse for others.  That just looks and sounds resentful, ill-spirited.  Rewarding pure PM's in this fashion seems an obvious choice, as demilich was a gimp; rewarding other pure classes/epic prestige classes will be trickier, for sure.  But I look forward to those too.  Dracoliches have a vital weakness as alluded to before, but that's all I"m gonna say about it.  I might discuss this with DMs on condition it's kept secret, but even still I'd be reluctant to share.  Some secrets should be kept secret imo.  You'd know too if you made one also.

If the casting power of the PM was improved, I clearly noted there would have to be some penalty enforced, such as some susceptibility to heal spells/effects, or a severely weakened casting progression.  Maybe even getting rid of immunity to crit, but with some compensation, such as 20-30% immunity to phys damage, or something like that.  That would give some reason for taking many levels in it, and such would be good trade-offs, though these are definitely up for debate.

As for the others, improving RDD's fire breath or AC could be possible, or even improving ability scores, as these are innately what it already has going for it.  Along these lines, perhaps. Perhaps a bonus to hide/ms and DR for SD.  Just throwing some ideas here.  Improving Shadow Lord if necessary --haven't had one yet, so I have little to say about it.



“The thirst for equality can express itself either as a desire to draw everyone down to one's level, or to raise oneself and everyone else up.”

PDK and Harper scout aren't really worth mentioning - we're talking about classes that are not really useful after 10 levels and pathetic after 20, and since these two only get 5 levels (pretty bad ones at that) they don't count.

Hey, watch what you say about the Harper Scout.  Some of the best builds in the game are made with these.

You've never heard of HS builds?

 

So many misconceptions here, where do I start?

Whoever saw a 60+ AB dracolich?  Not I.  In the 50's, thank you.  Chances are if it was higher you were simply flanked.  

AC?  In the 50's the last time I checked.  Uber?  A lvl 20 toon gets better, often.  Where are the figures you're working with?  How has the thread gone this long based on such BS?

The original AC of the dracolich was something like 38, which was obviously pitiful, when compared with other summons, keeping in mind it's a LVL 40 summon, and perhaps the only REAL offensive promise a PM can look forward to, at the end of a month or two scraping monsters to death (if, that is, you spent 5-6 hours per day.. no comment, except what lvl is mine? 38.  Been that way for a while, the pure pm must be the second most annoying thing ever to level up--maybe the bard-pm-sd would be the most annoying, yet worthwhile thing.  Kudos to Suene for having finished his.  Thanks to the team for having made this possible with less hernia).  What I asked for was better AC and regen, the AB was reasonable.

Anyway, Draco didn't even have regen, so it died in places like Stingers or Spirits, in a battle or two, whereas the lvl 26 summon: Balor Lord, pwned them ten times over.  Do you see why I suggested an enhancement?

I have a few suggestions, if your lament is about improving other classes.  Please stop moaning here and think of ways to improve those classes, whether RDD or what not, then post a topic about it.

A lot of thought, experiment, and time, have been spent in designing the build which both Suene and I sometimes use, and I'm certain that the palemaster's dracolich was added by the GvsM team here partly to compensate for the fact that the demilich (as in the original HotU) was a munchkin, not nearly as effective as it was promised to be originally, a veritable disappointment for those who spend a lifetime (and then some) to the dark arts; and also to add diversity to builds, since there's something inherent perfect about a "pure class" anyway--for the extremists among us.  I would like to see more incentive for other pure builds.  I'd love to see a lvl 30 SD with perks.

Again, this thread is about improving the class, and if it's just "preferential" treatment for the class you can't deal with, please start a thread about improving another one to bring another into balance.

To me, this is like the "warrior's gauntlet" concept for the PM class, somewhat, for those who, like myself, have a thing for pure classes.  Let other purists be rewarded, but please don't talk about modifications yet if you don't have even the approximate numbers and figures (like the ab or ac) to start with.  I'd hate for changes to be recommended by people with little experience with the darn thing except being able to describe its innards or the exact dimensions of its teeth, or their sharpness..

So, the pure pm is annoying to kill. Oh, is this anything new?  His touch wouldn't be 'deathless' otherwise.  Get over it.  PM is healing his pet?  Disable him.  Blind him, taunt him, bigby him, petrify him, KD him, disarm him (this works, trust me), make him run for that staff as you slaughter his dracolich.  What?  A rogue can't kill a dracolich?  Why thank you for sharing that pearl of wisdom, son!  Get back to me though when it kills that pesky shadow dragon with true seeing and immunity t sneaks, and I'll treat you like you have a brain.  It's not like even if you could figure out the dracolich's weakness and then get rid of him, your dex-based kukri's gonna even dent the PM with epic dr 3 anyway and epic energy resistance..


One thing I miss is the arena, as players could easily test out weaknesses of summons and other players with leisure, and now one has to be on the lookout for players who want the space for levelling.  So I can see some reason for the frustration, but please don't moan after 2-3 badly gone pvp matches.  I've died countless times to other players.  Frustrations are more easily voiced, of course.

This build was made with PvM in mind mainly and anything else would be accidental (and quite new as well for me).  And NLawson, get over that time I found you AFK, near dead and I casted hellball on you.  I don't recall killing you any other time with my toon.

Finally, to answer the question: WHY?  I was curious about the Dracolich summon, haven't seen anyone else with it yet.  Reasoned it would accompany a tank PM for easy-boss runs or support in party.  Works that way for me.  Whoever says it has uber ac and ab is grossly misinformed and spreading lies.

All in all, I hope we bring the arena back soon.

If changes be made, after all, just compare the summon to, say, a Balor Lord, Shadow Fiend, Shadow Dragon, etc, .. then consider how much better a lvl 40 summon should  be to these, which can be had at lvl 26, for a build which was designed to rely on his for offense?  

Personally, with the Dracolich's inherent weaknesses (some of you are making it out like to be the boogeyman with some obviously jealousy "why is it the only one? why not other classes? why preferential treatment, etc") --which you haven't yet spent time discovering!!!--think of how irrelevant these sound to Suene, I, and anyone else who've experienced horrors while using it?   He alluded to these as well.  We guard them well, and it's a damned good reason why we do.

Also the argument that the PM gets a meleeing tank is fruitless.  A shadowdancer gets a tank.  A Blackguard gets a cleric (Dark Lord).  Seriously, these arguments are so void and somewhat annoying.

A mage gets a dragon!   A human (druid) gets a bear!  What?  A human gets an animal?  How dare he!  Lynch him.  Before his summon kills you.  What genius logic.  

And it's not that RDD hasn't been developed that bugs me - it's that PM HAS and it's about the only class which was useless at high levels (20+) before that isn't useless at those levels now. It's the only class in it's category which has been developed, the rest have all been left behind.

So why only PM (so far), and why such a huge jump? I still don't get it...

If you can give me a good reason I will concede that it's fine - but saying "Because lvl 30 PM is so weak we needed to make them viable as a build" is NOT a good reason. Why not just go the whole hog and remove alignment restrictions for classes and make every build viable, rather than just one specific sub-section of Pale-Master builds?

While you're at it - remove exp penalties. If those get removed for everyone I might just be happy enough that I'll shut up about the PM class. Yes - that's a blatant opening for a bribe, and it'd make everyone else happy as well. Win/Win situation...

I'm all for enhancing other pure builds too, if need be.

You said it's not that RDD hasn't been developed that bugs you, but then what you say next seems to support exactly that. 

By the way, I'm certain you misread my original post: I never said that the 30 PM is useless, I specifically went into great length to explain that it's its offense which could use a boost.  Have you ever considered what kind of AC a pure PM can have?  The implied question is, for instance, how does a pure PM level up, solo, against monsters, if it has no comparable offense?  If this helps in PVP, then so be it, although my lvl 26 Sorc is perfectly capable of Meleeing the dracolich to death without using any offensive spells.  It takes experiment and experience to defeat it.  There are other, easier ways too, but I won't give such secrets away publicly.

the recent changes are appreciated, I wanted to say.

I just think I forgot to mention the Ghoul Lord,... .....
I forget what lvl summon he is, but maybe he should come far before Wendigo...
Windigo has a nice DC death howl which comes very handy,  whereas the Ghoul Lord...

Not a very important issue yet, imo, but for anyone who wishes to finish PM on those levels, may become an issue later.

I went with Unferth with my smiter and noticed he was harder than usual, running all over the front court.
After wasting my third smite on Suene himself I rested, then landed a lucky double crit which helped to get rid of him ...  Suene and I suspected he may have been improved, but.. were glad to know he was still killable.  Noruas resetted the server soon afterward, and I haven't checked back on the king since.

Ditto.

Someone mentioned to me that TS can't be casted on other PC's now.

Is this true?  Because it seems to defeat the purpose of the party-Cleric or party-Sorc now, where sneakers are concerned. 

ps- TS should give one of either: real true seeing for a limited time/ or bonus to spot for a limited time, but not both.  see invis is redundant and unfair, I agree.

That sounds totally fun.

How about if the portal opened right after reset, broadcasted by server shout?

That way, there's a huge incentive for both factions to do this quest right when the server starts, and for PVP to get started without any delay.  What a far better alternative to heading to Moria or Stingers or Spirits or Shelob's!  

The logic being, for farmers, bosses may respawn or remain for the rest of the hour, but the portal will be there for only, say, 10-15 minutes (allowing time for muling, re-equipping, and so on).

Maybe after this first quest ends, another portal opens up, and server shout tells us on which map it is.  ^^

My only concern is the level-spread.  What would happen if some people only had toons in the range of lvl 15-20 but wanted to participate? 

Maybe a total of 5 portals?  50K xp? Sure!  But look how fun it could be. 

Perhaps portals 1-5 can open sequentially, as announced by server shout.

Portal 1 quest: lvls 8-15
Portal 2 quest: lvls 15-22
Portal 3 quest: lvls 22-29
Portal 4 quest: lvls 29-36
Portal 5 quest: lvls 33-40

Just a thought on working around the different levels, while encouraging these quests serverwide.

Yes, the 8th pre-epic feat I missed was sure to be blindfight (now there's where that missing feat went!)

And I'm totally with dropping 2 great strengths for 2 of Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, or Knockdown.

I'm glad you like NLawson, I might even go ahead and make one like this later too, after I finish my smiters and my wizard.  I couldn't have found it without your query and the input of others, so thanks for inquiring too.

BTW, I guess the best perk of RDD is it helps to get ability prerequisites. (+2 cha, for instance)  That's why CHA is left at 18 at first.  +8 to str, +2 to const, +2 to int, and +2 to cha, for a paladin, sounds great to me.  


P.S.: You can delay your 4th Paladin level to lvl 39 or lvl 40 level up if you want to maximize Taunt, at the cost of 1 AB loss.

Somehow I think it would be best if all tough bosses all had only unique item drops.

It's very disheartening finding a ring of freedom, bracer of dex +6, strength +6 belt, or boots of hardiness +4 when a boss dies.  And this is if there's a drop at all.

If the total drop rate was better for them, that'd be okay.  But with the current rate, unfortunate.

Yes, if we focus on the 5 areas (and perhaps even make scavvy appear more often there too?), maybe 20 kills would be okay as well.  

What about if we kill the same person 3 times during one reset?  Do these additional kills count?  If yes, then 50 kills seems a little more viable.  But I tend to think anything past 20 or 30 might be pushing it.

The key point in the minds of farmers will be:

What will take longer to achieve?  X-number of kills, or killing the boss 10-15 times in order to risk getting the drop I want?

These two odds must be weighed, and so I think somewhere within 20-30 kills seems more reasonable, since getting better odds doesn't exactly equal getting the monster drop we want anyway.

Nonetheless, I suppose this all weighs upon the prospect of enhancing the 5 center maps, maybe putting more uber missions there for uber xp, perhaps even uber drops.  It could be a sure way not only to increase inter-factional struggle, but also quicker leveling up (pvp kill xp + uber mission xp + xp bonus).  Nice incentives for spending quality time there, so to speak.  ^^

Good points.

That's enough damage there already, so your suggestion of armor skin is a good one, coupled with prowess.

Greater Ruin is a nice option, despite its DC being a wee low, but it's sure damage while under Tenser's, which I didn't know was possible.  So yes, if you don't mind recasting Divine Shield once every 11 rounds (w/ haste, which can be extended for up to 52 rounds) and using armor ammy and armor ring, Epic Mage Armor does become optional if not redundant.

I must have miscalculated or missed something when I forgot toughness or KD.  Probably KD is the way to go here, as the AB is worthwhlie to work with already.  Nice job picking up on it.

All in all, your suggestions would make it better, good call.

Definitely post the other build you mentioned.  

AND after some thought I favour the 26 Sorc/4 Pal/10 RDD spread, probably going no more than 20 base CHA when finished.

Lvl 1, start with Sorc, to avoid wastng stats on Wisdom, which you won't need as a Paladin (no spells at lvl 4)
at Lvl 2, take Paladin, to get martial and armor feats.  From Lvl 3 Paladin, you begin taking Divine Shield and Divine Might.  Spread these wisely in order to gain both before you reach lvl 20.

15 STR
8 DEX
14 CON
8 WIS
14 INT
16 CHA

Boost CHA ONLY TO 18. (+2 CHA from RDD will boost it naturally to 20)

Boost STR for all remaining level-ups, finishing at 38 STR which includes 3 Great Strength feats, allowing a total STR of 50 (with +12 str from items, spells), which means +20 damage per hit with a normal weapon and +30 damage with a two-handed one.  Not bad for an epic-speell casting Sorc--and don't forget you also get up to 11 divine damage added, from Divine Might.  That's at least 31 extra damage whenever you kick something.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-Epic, take these feats (divine shield/divine might must be timed for LVLS 3 and 4, on a feat-level)

(in some semblance of order)

Power Attack
Still Spell
Weapon Focus: any martial weapon (after Pal level)
Improved Crit: any martial weapon (after Pal level)
Divine  Might
Divine Shield
Extend Spell


Pre-Epic Levels:

8 Sorc
4 Pal
8 RDD

or

8 Sorc
3 Pal
9 RDD
(if you want to maxizmize taunt later, at the cost of 1 BAB)

-------------------------------

Post-Epic

Great Strength I
Great Strength II
Great Strength III
Epic Mage Armor (or Epic Spell of Choice)
Epic Weapon Focus
Epic Warding (or Epic Spell of Choice)
Auto Still I
Auto Still II
Auto Still III

-------------------------------------

When finished, you should have 52 AB with a +5 weapon you focus in, with a +6 ab boost from maxed strength items--unbuffed, hence undispellable.

You have access to 9th level Sorcerer spells including Timestop, Bigby's Crushing and and Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

You will be able to attain decent AC from Divine Shield, Epic Mage Armor, Haste, and cross-classed 20 ranks in Tumble.

You can get up to 11 bonus divine damage per hit from Divine might.

You can cast Tensor's Transformation to gain up to 13 Bonus AB

(After some thought, this may be one of the best arcane-meleers I've come across)

One question to others:  Does Tensor's count toward the max +20 AB cap?

With just one buff (Tensor's), this toon would be at 65 AB.
If dispelled, cast again.  Just a one-spell solution, unlike that of a cleric.  
Smite should be at 76 AB, (not something you'll rely on).  

Only dispellable by others arcane casters too, maybe.  What do you think?

Anyway - my point was, I put this up here so you guys could do exactly what you're doing right now. Now that I've put it up - I probably won't be responding very often (because my input is negligible compared to a lot of others - my ideas are generally bad) but I'll certainly be reading it and trying to get ideas of what seem to be good or bad choices when building toons.

I'm still in two minds over whether to post the other build I thought up - I would quite like input on it, but I also don't want to hear about all the problems with it >_<
Anyway - thanks a lot guys ^_^ by all means keep throwing ideas around.

Try Bard20/Sorc18/SD2, go dex and get 20cha. 16bard/4sorc preepic. You end up with something like 61ab under tensers, mid-high 70's ac, and lasting inspiration for your song/curse.

That's a wickedly cool idea, though SD might be redundant?  With all that Charisma, wouldn't Cleric's Divine Might be a better investment? (and optional Divine Shield)