Heal/Mass Heal and Conjuration Focus feats

[Khaine]

Been thinking about the Heal and Mass Heal spells, and how Circle Healing gets benefits if you're going the healbot toon route and getting Conjuration focus feats.

If you're a cleric healbot toon, 150 healing and 5% (not as if it's likely to happen) chance to full heal isn't really that awesome, when circle healing has bigger area of effect and heals for almost the same (unless you luck on the 5%).

So how about some form of benefit from conjuration focus feats for Heal and Mass Heal spells? Either in the form of static increase in the heal cap (example: 20, 50 and 100 higher cap on max healing, still need the cleric levels to get the "new" cap of 250 heal), OR increased % chance for full heal (example: 1%, 3% and 5% increased cance to full heal).

These are just examples, I'm sure someone who knows more about balance than me could do a better job at coming up with some good balanced numbers, but it'd be nice to see some form of benefit to those spells from conjuration focus.

Thoughts?

[Lief]

Howdy all,

I was hoping to do some farming tonight. But, I saw Flaccid's proposal, which if enacted would make solo farming fairly easy and duo farming way too easy. Indeed, although I'm not an expert at spells, but it appears at first glace that giving a boost to healing merely because of specialization in conjuration would lead to the type of imbalance that we "ALL" would prefer to avoid owing to the fact that conjuration ALONE is an uber school in which to specialize. The latter is due to Terrorble's tweaking of the various and sundry AoE spells, including conjuration spells. 

Nevertheless, should there be an interest in implementing this proposal, I propose for consideration a formula, which could moderate the proposed boost. Of course, I'm a bit tired after a long day at work as a cubicle monkey so my logic may be misplaced. 

formula:
    amount healed = {1+ [factor(domain: Healing) x factor(SF|GSF|ESF enchantment)] + Sum(cleric + druid levels) / 175 } x Amt healed by healing spell

e.g.: 
 = {1 + [1 x (0.2 or 0.4 or 0.6) + (dr+cl)/175] } x 150 HPs healed

constant   heal domain   sf/gsf/esf   dr+cl lvls   Factor   healed amt   totalHealed
1   0   0   0   1.00   150   150.0
1   0   0   40   1.23   150   184.3
1   1   0.2   0   1.20   150   180.0
1   1   0.2   40   1.43   150   214.3
1   1   0.4   40   1.63   150   244.3
1   1   0.6   40   1.83   150   274.3


comments: 
  (a) The formula above presumes that the highest amount that can be healed by a clerical or druidic spell is 150 HPs; this ignores healing from other sources, e.g. pally's lay on hands and monk's whatever-it-is-called. In any event, without the healing domain, one can only multiple healing by a max of a factor of 1.23x, while with the healing domain, one can heal to a max of 1.83x. 
   
  (b) with an eye toward the combo with wiz/sorc and dr/cleric, one should replace the proferred conjuration school with a school that might be less "useful:"
     (i)  Enchantment - but would there be an imbalance to: Confusion, Dominate person, Mass haste and Dominate monster ??
     (ii) Illusion - but would there be an imbalance to: Phantasmal killer, Mass blindness/deafness and Weird ??

  (c) under the conjuration/healing proposal and ignoring the 5% possibility of a full heal, one could be a devastating solo farmer with both healing capacity and uber AoE spells (with +6 DC); we can thank Terrorble for the new, uber AoE spells. For example, cleric 11 for heal spell, 1 monk for tumble/discpl and 28 mage OR more cleric and fewer mage OR some combo with druid instead) 

Also, a druid and/or cleric with uber healing capability under the proposal would also have uber dmg output capability via bombardment (working now?), creeping doom (tested to satisfaction by Terrorble - I was a witness and I believe !!) and storm of vengeance

     interesting conjuration spells:
     - healing circle 5/Monstrous regeneration 5/heal 6/mass heal 8
     - Level 6: stonehold - not sure how good it is after Terrorble's change (nwn version: will saves/SR can counter)
     - Level 7: Creeping doom (dr/cl with plant) - uber 
     - Level 8: Bombardment -- any good ??
     - cloudkill 5/acid fog 6 - very nice spells now after Terrorble's change
     - storm of vengeance 9

     - what is/are implications for Dragon knight and Mummy dust under the proposal??


  (d) since some boss(es) are vulnerable to the heal spell (still true?), consider adding a multiplier of 0,5 to the above formula when healing spells are used against a hostile NPC. Consequently, the healing dmg that can be inflicted on a hostile NPC is between 75 and 137 dmg. Is this still too uber???

  (e) Consider making players that have 10+ pm levels be vulnerable to healing spells from NPCs and other players !!! If not 10 pm levels, consider the latter for 15+ pm levels for those PM toons that have epic warding ?

  (f) eliminate the 5% possibility of a full heal for PLAYERS

  (g) consider reducing A L L healing items from 150 heal to 50 heal - e.g. make it so that blessed cloaks/(mass) healing ammies can only heal a max of 50 healing points just like nature's gift rings -- or at least lowered to 100 HPs (max heal). This would encourage more teams with clerics getting a special invitation and thereby discouraging solo farming.

[Khaine]

Thanks for the reply, Marcus. I'm not very good at math, so I can't say much about your calculations.
However, I sincerely doubt you can make a caster build that can out-shine a tenser dragon or cleric dragon toon in solo farming bosses.

I like suggestions f and g.

I'd gladly sacrefice the 5% chance for full heal for more static heal per cast (with conjuration focus feats). 5% is very unreliable, and I never cast a heal/mass heal and expect it to full heal. When I've got low HP and use heal it never procs, and when I use it at 70% hp or so I trigger the full heal.

Also, lowering the heal on items (my blessed cloak heals 150) to 100 or so would indeed encourage bringing a cleric toon to raids, especially when considering that the heal kit isn't as useful as it used to be, especially not for PM tanks.

[Thiagow2008]

I'd gladly sacrefice the 5% chance for full heal for more static heal per cast (with conjuration focus feats). 5% is very unreliable, and I never cast a heal/mass heal and expect it to full heal. When I've got low HP and use heal it never procs, and when I use it at 70% hp or so I trigger the full heal.

I'm with Khaine. I would, most definetly, sacrefice the 5% chance of full heal for more static heal with conj feats.

And also it would prevent those 3k+ HP bosses to full heal when Near Death.

[NLawson]

And also it would prevent those 3k+ HP bosses to full heal when Near Death.

Nah it wouldn't - he said players.

But I like that idea too. PCs get only a few casts of heal, and they never rely on it to heal them to full health (because that's a stupid idea), so they don't really lose anything from losing the 5% chance...they only gain extra health from EVERY heal with those feats, which is very nice.

[Endlessorrow]

I,m not sure but arent heal and mass heal necro class spells?

[klixon]

I,m not sure but arent heal and mass heal necro class spells?

mass heal and heal are both conjuration spells

[Lief]

Howdy all,

The "150 HPs healed" (max from spell) in the formula above was just a number that I threw out. Having raised the 100 figure, Flaccid appears implicitly to acknowledge that 100 is a more reasonable healing amount, rather than the 150 figure that I posited. In the new formula, I would like to promote a more pure cleric/druid build as well as one that takes the healing domain A N D the good domain.

On another note, it has been brought to my attention that GvM is a game derived from NWN, which in turn is derived from Dungeons & Dragons. DnD as I am told is all about rolling the dice. Consequently, the formula that I propose must have a stochastic/probabilistic element. So, I am dropping the deterministic model.

NEW formula:
   total amt healed = Amt_Healed + (MULT_Factor x Amt_Healed x 1d20 / 10)
   MULT_Factor = [Domain_Good + Domain_Healing + (SF|GSF|ESF Enchantment) + (Sum(cleric + druid levels) / 40 )]


   Domain_Good = 0 or 0.3
   Domain_Healing = 0 or 0.6
   SF|GSF|ESF enchantment school = 0 or 0.2 or 0.4 or 0.6
   Amt_Healed (max from any healing spell) = 50


comments:
1. spell schools and clerical domains
  a. nota bene: the relevant school is ENCHANTMENT and NOT conjuration. Alternatively, DMs can choose the illusion school or some other school that would not allow a cleric/druid to be anything other than a very good healing toon, i.e. the toon would be a poor offensive caster, sneak, tank and melee toon.

  b. The good domain gives the ability to turn outsiders and to cast stoneskin and lesser planar binding. And presuming that GvM has not modified this domain to make it more useful ( for anything other than healing), then the good domain should make the cleric/druid a better healer - and only a better healer.

  c. An alternative domain to the good domain for the formula above is the knowledge domain. This domain gives the ability to cast: identify, knock, clairaudience/clairvoyance, true seeing and legend lore. It should not benefit the healing cleric/druid in another other way (unless GvM modified it).


2. max amts of healing
  For a successful healing: 
    lowest max = 50 + [(0.0 + 0.0 + 0.0) + (0/40)] x 50 x 1 / 10 = 50

    highest max = 50 + [(0.3 + 0.6 + 0.6) + (40/40)] x 50 x 20 / 10 = 300


Sample calculations:
good   heal   spFoc   dr+cl    MULT_Factor    Amt_Healed   1   5   10   15   20
0   0   0   0   0   50   50   50   50   50   50
0   0   0.2   1   1.2   50   56   80   110   140   170
0   0   0.4   1   1.4   50   57   85   120   155   190
0   0   0.6   1   1.6   50   58   90   130   170   210
                              
                              
0.3   0   0   0   0.3   50   52   58   65   73   80
0.3   0   0.2   1   1.5   50   58   88   125   163   200
0.3   0   0.4   1   1.7   50   59   93   135   178   220
0.3   0   0.6   1   1.9   50   60   98   145   193   240
                              
                              
0   0.6   0   0   0.6   50   53   65   80   95   110
0   0.6   0.2   1   1.8   50   59   95   140   185   230
0   0.6   0.4   1   2   50   60   100   150   200   250
0   0.6   0.6   1   2.2   50   61   105   160   215   270
                              
                               
0.3   0.6   0   0   0.9   50   55   73   95   118   140
0.3   0.6   0.2   1   2.1   50   61   103   155   208   260
0.3   0.6   0.4   1   2.3   50   62   108   165   223   280
0.3   0.6   0.6   1   2.5   50   63   113   175   238   300



3. wisdom modifier has ZERO bearing on whether a healing effort is successful or not and ZERO bearing on the amount of the healing


4. successful healing?
  The DMs have already implemented a script for healing. I don't remember the details. Having given this disclaimer, please read the following points with the aforementioned script in mind and ignore/consider these points as appropriate. Again, all of this is fodder for debate by players and DMs alike.

  a. Concentration check
    (1) failed conc check means no healing
    (2) constitution modifier is considered for the conc check --- NOT wisdom modifier !!
    (3) uncertain whether the number of druid/cleric levels should have a bearing on the conc check --- this depends on how the script is written
    (4) conc check factors: 
        [a] whether in combat (i.e. battle music) or not
        whether player being targeted with the healing falls under the following:
          has the dragon shape feat;
          [ii] has the improved elemental shape ability (i.e. druid 16+) or has Construct shape feat or has undead shape feat -- irrelevant whether player is shifted when the healing occurs; 
          [iii] has 10+ PM levels; or
          [iv] has some combination of Epic dmg resist feats + (barbarian dmg resistance or DD dmg resistance) so that total dmg resist is 18/- or more).

  b. timing of healing
    (i) a target of healing may not be healed more than 1x every 2 rounds (12 seconds), whether it is cure light wounds (conjuration) or greater restoration (necromancy) or mass heal (conjuration);
    (ii) whether or not the first attempt to heal a player toon succeeds, subsequent healing(s) within the same 2 rounds will be auto-failures; and 
    (iii) the timing of healing script should not differentiate whether the first attempt at healing a player was via a spell or via an item.
 









If one feels that the numbers are too low, then remove the 10 and put in a 5:

   total amt healed = Amt_Healed + (MULT_Factor x Amt_Healed x 1d20 / 5)

sample calculations:
good   heal   spFoc   dr+cl    MULT_Factor    Amt_Healed   1   5   10   15   20
0   0   0   0   0   50   50   50   50   50   50
0   0   0.2   1   1.2   50   62   110   170   230   290
0   0   0.4   1   1.4   50   64   120   190   260   330
0   0   0.6   1   1.6   50   66   130   210   290   370
                              
                              
0.3   0   0   0   0.3   50   53   65   80   95   110
0.3   0   0.2   1   1.5   50   65   125   200   275   350
0.3   0   0.4   1   1.7   50   67   135   220   305   390
0.3   0   0.6   1   1.9   50   69   145   240   335   430
                              
                              
0   0.6   0   0   0.6   50   56   80   110   140   170
0   0.6   0.2   1   1.8   50   68   140   230   320   410
0   0.6   0.4   1   2   50   70   150   250   350   450
0   0.6   0.6   1   2.2   50   72   160   270   380   490
                              
                               
0.3   0.6   0   0   0.9   50   59   95   140   185   230
0.3   0.6   0.2   1   2.1   50   71   155   260   365   470
0.3   0.6   0.4   1   2.3   50   73   165   280   395   510
0.3   0.6   0.6   1   2.5   50   75   175   300   425   550

As you can see, the lowest max is 50 still and the highest max is 550 HPs healed.

[Lief]

notes

A. jumbled numbers
To read the numbers more easily:
  1. cut and paste the numbers into a text file
  2. open MS Excel
  3. choose delimited
  4. choose Space
  5. think on the numbers - hehe


B. columns on right side of jumbled numbers
the columns "1, 5, 10, 15, 20" are dice rolls (1d20).

[Khaine]

Wow, it looks like someone's been working hard. 

550 max heal is maybe a little over the top, yeah, so 300 would probably be better. It's still twice as much as you can get now.

There are 2 things I'm concerned about, however:

1. If you make the heal, mass heal and greater restoration spells to be of another school than conjuration, then that means a healer cleric would have to specialize in 2 schools (as conjuration is currently used for Healing Circle, which gives it a few extra dices of healing per focus feat).

One way to solve this is to make all the divine type healing spells into another school (one that doesn't have any useful offensive spells in it).

2. Creating a "timing of healing" would pretty much defeat the purpose of making a toon specialized in spamming healing spells, if it means the targets of the heals can't be healed again until X seconds have passed.

I know for a fact that there's at least one area in the mod where everyone in the raid is guaranteed to receive 80ish damage every 8-10 seconds, in addition to having archers shooting at them, and very tough mobs (like the nazgul watcher) to deal with. This, combined with the map being huge, and you have to spend at least 2 minutes there (at least I think so, we never actually made it to the end because the periodic damage was pretty insane), makes it very vital that the healer is able to keep spamming healing spells to keep the raid alive.

*In retrospect after writing most of the things below*

Regarding the timer subject, maybe a 6 second timer or so would be appropriate. So long as the targets who receive heals can still be targeted with heal kits, 6 seconds wouldn't be too long without healing in The Eye of Sauron, and it also shouldn't break PvP (which I'm assuming is the main reason for this suggestion) by letting healer toons spam heal/mass heal.

------


On another note, I'm not sure if I understand you, regarding the concentration checks, but it seems you're suggesting some sort of increased difficulty to heal PCs who have either dragon shape, 16+ lvls of druid, construct or undead shape, 10+ PM levels or 18+ DR from class feats + Epic DR feats (a.k.a DR tanks).

If that's correct, then I think that's a very interesting idea. But I'm not sure wether you mean it should raise the difficulty to land a successful heal on them, or if it should heal them for less.
Any chance you could explain that part in layman terms?

I do, however, like the idea of balancing out the increased healing power from a pure healing focused toon by making it less effective when healing the more extreme "tanking" toons that are being used on the server these days.

[Lief]

Howdy all,

Let me respond to Flaccid and post a new formula that may be more logical from a practical standpoint. Of course, this is merely my perspective, which must be weighed against what others think. Moreover, even if implemented, DMs will likely have to tweak the healing mechanism after an observation period.


AA. Enchantment specialization factors into the MULT_Factor and N O T the conjuration school !

By choosing enchantment as the school for specialization in order to increase healing capability, one:
  1. can boost healing capability of healing toons
  2. and LIMIT the flexibility of a healing toon to be uber at something else other than healing !!

This is similar in concept to the use of divination as a school of spell focus for those who want to be true strike spammers; specialization via epic spell focus

divination grants no real advantage other than true strike spamming capability since:
 - the divination school only benefits a grunt with the spells true strike and premonition
 - but the same grunt would likely be a very poor offensive caster vis-a-vis the spells Power word, stun and Power word, kill

This is balance !

Well, not really. As you can see in section BB, the 39 cl/1 monk toon is uber for B O T H healing and casting offensive spells; it should have uber DC numbers for necromancy spells. Alternatively, this 39/1 build can have very nice offensive Conjuration spells by taking conjuration instead of necromancy.

If DMs wanted to minimize the latter result, one could alter the applicable, existing script or put in a script that has the following:

      IF CasterToonAA has the healing domain,
      THEN CasterToonAA suffers -10 DC to any spells from the ____ school and/or ___ school ... or to any enumerated spells.





BB. sample healing build

Someone,  please test this out and figure out the DC of the build's spells, especially conjuration and necromancy spells.

39/1 build: human race

Abilities
str   14      14
dex   10      10
con   14      14
int   14      14
wis   16   20   36 for +19 Mod_Wis
cha   8      8

Level - cumulative Skill points - class - feats/bonus feats
1   20   cl 01   extend   spell pen
2   25   cl 02      
3   30   cl 03   gr spell pen    
4   35   cl 04      
5   40   cl 05      
6   45   cl 06   still   
7   50   cl 07      
8   55   cl 08      
9   60   cl 09   SF enchantment     
10   65   cl 10      
11   70   cl 11      
12   75   cl 12   GSF enchantment
13   80   cl 13      
14   85   cl 14      
15   90   cl 15   SF necro     
16   95   cl 16      
17   100   cl 17      
18   105   cl 18   GSF necro   
19   110   cl 19      
20   115   cl 20      
21   120   cl 21   E spell pen    
22   125   cl 22      
23   130   cl 23   clericEpicFeat: ESF enchantment
24   135   cl 24   great wisdom   
25   140   cl 25      
26   145   cl 26   clericEpicFeat: ESF necro
27   150   cl 27   great wisdom   
28   155   cl 28      
29   160   cl 29   clericEpicFeat: great wisdom
30   165   cl 30   great wisdom   
31   170   cl 31      
32   175   cl 32   cleric: epicFeat: great wisdom
33   180   cl 33   great wisdom   
34   185   cl 34      
35   190   cl 35   cleric: epicFeat: great wisdom
36   195   cl 36   great wisdom   
37   202   monk      
38   207   cl 37      
39   212   cl 38   great wisdom AND cleric: epicFeat: great wisdom
40   217   cl 39      


Skills: 217 total
43   concentrate
40   discipline
43   heal
2   openLck: dex (1)
6   persuade (to persuade DMs not to implement my proposal)
43   spellcraft
40   tumble
 = 217   


Notes:
- human race for more skill points and 1 free feat
- monk 1 for evasion and monk (wisdom) AC bonus --- under this build, one gets +19 ac !
- Heal spell cannot be maximized, nor empowered
- Necromancy is worthwhile to get for Greater Restoration (lvl 7), although Lesser restoration and Restoration are conjuration (school) spells.
- Necromancy has some interesting offensive spells
- this toon will be very good at healing and will have strong necromancy spells




 
CC. Healing process: three steps process

1. Does the healing work
2. Frequency of healing 
3. Calculate the total amount healed



1. Does healing work? 

I will finish developing a proposal for this step of the healing mechanism tomorrow. 


2. Frequency of healing

In response to Flaccid, one can't be a hero for EVERY situation. Also, I am pretty sure that Red has left at least one loophole that would make the map that you mentioned somewhat easier. You just have to figure it out.

This 2nd step is meant to prevent constant spamming of healing spells. So, if healing works, then check to see if target of healing had been healed within the last <<<two>>> rounds (= 12 second).

Anyway, if the healer has 112 Skill_Heal and succeeds with all five healings (spells) during one (1) minute, then the max possible healing [if the target is not crit imm/nor has too high of dmg resist] is 330 x 5 = 1,650 HPs healed !! 

"So long as the targets who receive heals can still be targeted with heal kits"
 - Yes, my earlier comment regarding frequency only addresses consecutive healing spells on the same target. I'll leave it to the DMs to decide whether the healing frequency component of the healing mechanism should take into account healing spells alone or healing spells + healing items (bandages/kits and cloaks, rings, ammies, etc). However, I believe that there is a timer for heal kit usage too.



3. Calculate the total amount healed

The new formula sidelines the static amount of healing from the healing spell and puts in center stage the heal skill ! As the Dutch Mario Kart Master would say - Doh !

NEW formula:
   total amt healed = { Amt_Healed + (MULT_Factor x Skill_Heal x 1d20 / 20) } / Tank_Factor

   MULT_Factor = [Domain_Good + Domain_Healing + (SF|GSF|ESF Enchantment) + (Sum(cleric + druid levels) / 40 )] 


   Domain_Good = 0 or 0.3
   Domain_Healing = 0 or 0.6
   SF|GSF|ESF enchantment school = 0 or 0.2 or 0.4 or 0.6
   Amt_Healed (max from the B E S T healing spell) = 50
   Tank_Factor = 1 or 2

 
Skill_Heal
43   base heal skills: 0 to 43      
0   Epic skill focus: heal: 0 or +10      
0   skill focus: heal: 0 or +3      
19   Wisdom Modifier      
50   items + bard song (+50 skills cap)      
= 112         


Notes:
- Skill_Heal: One can get to 125 heal skill by adding +13 more from skill focus heal and epic skill focus heal -- i.e. by dropping necromancy specialization, which also would yield 1 free feat
- toon with 30 bard levels and 100 perform can boost skills by +19
- Tank_Factor: Tanks that are listed in my earlier posting above either have crit immunity or high dmg resistance (see above)
    Tank_Factor = 1 if target of healing is not crit imm/have high dmg resist
    Tank_Factor = 2 if " is "
- Flaccid - the more extreme "tanking" toons ------ one cann't design scripts around SUBJECTIVE words like extreme. A build is either crit imm or it is not. A build exceeds a cut-off for dmg resistance (which is admittedly subjective, but observation will suggest what is high enough of a dmg resistance) or it does not.





DD. Stochastic testing

Since there is one Terrorble and only one Terrorble, I will presume that the rest of you will build healing POWERbuilds. Accordingly, I tested 50,000 iterations using the following parameters for the toon that is casting the healing spells:

- has good domain
- has healing domain
- has epic spell focus ENCHANTMENT
- has 40 cleric levels: 40/40 =  1.00
- ergo, MULT_Factor = 2.5
- Skill_Heal = 112
- healer is healing a toon that would have a Tank_Factor = 1


THEORETICAL total amount healed 
   If one had only 80 Skill_Heal, then the max HPs healed would be 250. With Tank_Factor being "2," then max HPs healed is 125.
   If one had only 112 Skill_Heal, then the max HPs healed would be 330. If Tank_Factor is 2, then 165 HPs.
   If one had only 125 Skill_Heal, then the max HPs healed would be 363. If Tank_Factor is 2, then 181.3 HPs.
  Nota bene: the key factor that is in the player's control is the Skill_Heal number.

good   heal   spFoc   dr+cl    MULT_Factor    Amt_Healed   Skill_Heal   1   5   10   15   20
0.3   0.6   0   0   0.9   50   80   54   68   86   104   122
0.3   0.6   0.2   1   2.1   50   80   58   92   134   176   218
0.3   0.6   0.4   1   2.3   50   80   59   96   142   188   234
0.3   0.6   0.6   1   2.5   50   80   60   100   150   200   250
                                 
                                  
0.3   0.6   0   0   0.9   50   112   55   75   100   126   151
0.3   0.6   0.2   1   2.1   50   112   62   109   168   226   285
0.3   0.6   0.4   1   2.3   50   112   63   114   179   243   308
0.3   0.6   0.6   1   2.5   50   112   64   120   190   260   330
                                 
                                 
0.3   0.6   0   0   0.9   50   125   56   78   106   134   163
0.3   0.6   0.2   1   2.1   50   125   63   116   181   247   313
0.3   0.6   0.4   1   2.3   50   125   64   122   194   266   338
0.3   0.6   0.6   1   2.5   50   125   66   128   206   284   363




"ACTUAL" (Excel) Total amount healed

Excel Descriptive Stats: total amt healed
Minimum   64
Maximum   330
Mean   197.37912 (i.e. average)
Median   204 (i.e. average of the two numbers in the middle of the 50,000 group)
Mode   246 (i.e. the most frequently occurring number)
Kurtosis   -1.198573161
Skewness   -0.008801952

Standard Error   0.359884031
Standard Deviation   80.47251571
Sample Variance   6475.825785
Range   266
Sum   9868956
Count   50000
Confidence Level(95.0%)   0.705376795



3. Bioware cheats re: 1d20 dice

Before I close, I would like to repeat something that Olle told me. Despite the fact that on a 1d20 dice, one has a 5% chance of rollng any of the 20 possible outcomes, this is not so. Any farmer can confirm that the pelagir king, for example, has better than a 5% chance of a full heal. So, the only conclusion is that the random number generator utilized by NWN is ... not very random.

Of course, this has everything to do with marketing. Having "fat tailed" probabilities, i.e. greater than expected chance of rolling 1s and 20s, means that players are more likely to be captivated enough to buy Bioware products. But of course, this is a cynical perspective. You decide.

[Lief]

Oops, I meant to test for DCs of enchantment and necromancy spells.
Of course, if one substitutes conjuration for necromancy ...

[Khaine]

Regarding the healing timer, we tested temple last night for red, and I got to test my healer (lvl 33) in the final area. The healing was actually less intensive than I had thought it would be (although the area is not finished, no boss there).
I didn't really have to spam any healing spells to keep the group alive, other than the odd empowered circle healing (which is currently on par with mass heal, as it has about twice the radius, despite it being medium radius, while mass heal is large... don't ask me...).

So my conclusion is that the 12 second timer will likely work fine, especially considering with that formula the possible healing done can be more than doubled, depending on how heavy duty healer you build your toon to be.

--

Again, regarding the change of spell school affecting the heal/mass heal spells for focus feats, any school that doesn't give offensive benefits would work great, I agree with you there. But I'll stress again that if that is done, then the school affiliated with the Circle Healing spell should also be changed accordingly, as it's a very useful healing spell, especially since the 6 regen applied to all targets healed stacks (like the regeneration spell).

I like the idea of giving a penalty to DC to certain offensive spell schools if the toon has the healing domain. Like you, I don't want to see anyone building a monster PvP/PvM build that can spam the most powerful heals while also having offensive capabilities. Perhaps -10 DC if taking Healing domain, and another -5 DC if taking Good domain would be appropriate (-DC to schools like necromancy and Evocation, to prevent power-hose PvP toons that spam DC 48 Implosions and can heal for 300+ per cast).

The heal skill being a factor for the healing done formula is interesting, and would actually fit nicely with the whole healer theme.

--

Also, unrelated to the suggestion, but somewhat relevant, and I don't feel the need to make a new topic for it:

Can any DM tell if the Mass Heal radius is bugged, or if it's working as it's intended?
According to the examine info of the spell, the Area of Effect of Mass Heal is Large, while the Area of Effect for Circle Healing is Medium. However, after testing the radius of both spells, I find that Circle Healing has almost twice the radius of Mass Heal (which has a very small radius, barely outside of melee range of the target location/creature).

PS: Props again to you, Marcus. Seems you're putting in a lot of effort to this.

[Lief]

Howdy all,

Below, you will find my proposal for step 1 of the healing mechanism.

Healing mechanism: three steps

1. Did the healing spell work?
2. Frequency of healing - i.e. was healing target just healed (via spell ..... or via spell | item????)
3. Calculate the total amount healed


formula for toon that is casting the healing spell:

   Healer_Agregate_Score = [ Skill_Conc / 2 + (spell penetration|Gsp|Esp) x 4 + sum(cleric+druid levels) x 2 ] / 3 + 1d20 dice


formula for toon that is the target of the healing spell:

   DC = Combat_Factor + Spell_Lvl x 4 + HealthPercentage_Factor


Parameters:
  Skill_Conc: ranges all the way up to 125 -- see previous posting regarding Skill_Heal
  spell penetration|Gsp|Esp: 0 or 2 or 4 or 6
  cleric+druid levels: ranges from 0 to 40

  Combat_Factor: 0 if no combat and 20 if combat (i.e. battle music is on)
  Spell_Lvl: ranges from 1 to 9
  HealthPercentage_Factor: ranges from 2 to 20 with intermediate numbers being even numbers - also, even if health is above 100% unbuffed/naked, there is a still a HealthPercentage_Factor of 2


Sample Numbers: Caster Toon Florence

Skill_Conc   sp/gsp/esp   cl+dr   1   5   10   15   20
80   2   1   18   22   27   32   37
80   4   20   33   37   42   47   52
80   6   40   49   53   58   63   68


Skill_Conc   sp/gsp/esp   cl+dr   1   5   10   15   20
112   2   1   23   27   32   37   42
112   4   20   38   42   47   52   57
112   6   40   54   58   63   68   73


Skill_Conc   sp/gsp/esp   cl+dr   1   5   10   15   20
125   2   1   25   29   34   39   44
125   4   20   41   45   50   55   60
125   6   40   57   61   66   71   76


Sample Numbers: Healing Target = WhippingBoy

                                                  HealthPercentage_Factor
--   --   >90   <=90   <=80   <=70   <=60   <=50   <=40   <=30   <=20   <=10
Combat_Factor   spell_lvl   2   4   6   8   10   12   14   16   18   20
0   1   6   8   10   12   14   16   18   20   22   24
0   5   22   24   26   28   30   32   34   36   38   40
0   9   38   40   42   44   46   48   50   52   54   56
                                 
20   1   26   28   30   32   34   36   38   40   42   44
20   2   30   32   34   36   38   40   42   44   46   48
20   3   34   36   38   40   42   44   46   48   50   52
20   4   38   40   42   44   46   48   50   52   54   56
20   5   42   44   46   48   50   52   54   56   58   60
20   6   46   48   50   52   54   56   58   60   62   64
20   7   50   52   54   56   58   60   62   64   66   68
20   8   54   56   58   60   62   64   66   68   70   72
20   9   58   60   62   64   66   68   70   72   74   76



EXAMPLE
Scenario:
- Caster Toon Florence is 40 cleric build. She only has 112 Skill_Conc and she also has epic spell penetration.
- Florence casts various healing spells from level 4 to level 8: 4/Cure Critical Wounds, 5/Healing Circle, 6/Heal, 7/Greater Restoration and 8/Mass Heal.
- The healing target is an epic dodging 10 sd/8 F/22 DD with no epic dmg reduction, i.e. only 15/-- dmg resistence, whose name is WhippingBoy. WhippingBoy only has 9% of his health points left at the time when all the spells are cast --- and the combat music is on !

Outcome:
sp_lvl   1   5   10   15   20   DC for 9% health
4   54   58   63   68   73   56
5   54   58   63   68   73   60
6   54   58   63   68   73   64
7   54   58   63   68   73   68
8   54   58   63   68   73   72


Conclusion:
- Depending on the dice roll, Florence succeeds 12 times and fails 13 times.
- With a roll of 20, Florence ALWAYS succeeds in casting up to level 8 healing spells during combat since her aggregate score would be 73.
- Out of combat, Florence will almost always succeed in healing since a roll of 1 gives her 54. This number (54) exceeds all possible, out of combat DC except for the 56, which corresponds to the healing target having less than or equal to 10% health remaining.
= Note: as a cleric, Florence will not cast any level 9 healing spells. In fact, only druids have to worry about the level 9 calculations.


Notes and Comments:

1. HealthPercentage_Factor: scripting
I'm not sure if this particular scrpt is already known, but the DMs now know that I know that which they know or should already know.
GetPercentageHPLoss(object)
Determines how wounded a creature is as a percentage of their maximum HP.
http://www.nwnlexicon.com/compiled/function.getpercentagehploss.html


2. building design consideration --- not architecture !!
2(a). One will note that because of the requirement to maximize the concentration skill and the healing skill, one must choose between the two as to which ONE will get more priority. On the one hand, one can increase the chance of the healing to work (1st step), but accept the fact that the maximum, potential healing amount will be lower. And vice-versa. 

2(b). One will note also that the 1st step ignores whether the target of the healing is crit imm or has an aggregate dmg resistance of 18/-- or more. 

3. Druid and Cleric healing spells

school   Druid   Cleric_normal   healingDomain   spell
Conjuration   1   1    --   Cure Light Wounds**
Conjuration   2   2    --   Lesser Restoration
Conjuration   3   2    --   Cure Moderate Wounds**
Necromancy   3    --    --   healing sting
Conjuration   4   3   2   Cure Serious Wounds**
Conjuration   5   4    --   Cure Critical Wounds**
Conjuration    --   4    --   Restoration
Conjuration   5   5    --   Monstrous Regeneration
Conjuration   6   5    --   Healing Circle
Conjuration   6   7    --   Regenerate
Conjuration   7   6   5   Heal
Necromancy    --   7    --   Greater Restoration
Conjuration    --   7    --   Resurrection
Transmutation   8    --    --   Nature's balance
Conjuration   9   8    --   Mass Heal

** = means that healing domain lets cleric cast these healing spells as empowered


4. nwn wiki Notes:
   - a cleric with this domain who casts a maximized cure spell will have the spell effects maximized before this domain empowers them.
   - healing domain's "empower healing" ability also empowers healing potions and items that cast the affected spells.


5. It's interesting that the heal spell is level 5, 6 or 7 depending on your class and whether or not you have the healing domain. This fact could be used to great effect for gaming the formula in the first step of the healing mechanism.

6. The above two formulas may have to be altered if there is interest in modifying what happens during the 1st step of the "healing mechanism" when the target of the healing spell is a hostile NPC and/or player.

[Lief]

In the Conclusion section of the Example, I said:

= Note: as a cleric, Florence will not cast any level 9 healing spells. In fact, only druids have to worry about the level 9 calculations.


After thinking about this, I'm not sure about the accuracy of this statement. 

[Khaine]

Hmm, wouldn't that formula kind of ruin the healing of any cleric who isn't absolutely stacked with concentration (+ from items etc), has epic penetration, and still end up wasting half the heals, essentially putting me back to an average of about 150 healing done, but more spiked (= bigger chance for people to die)?

I can understand healing for less if you're lacking this or that, but a formula that essentally gives you spell failure unless your toon is lvl 40 with epic skill focus concentration and +40 or so concentration from items and epic spell penetration.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but it seems a little over the top.

[Lief]

Howdy all,
   
You are correct Flaccid that the healing mechanism does NOT scale down very well. It's designed for those at or near level 40. Of course, on our powerbuild server, most of the major raids takes place with mid 30s and up. And at these levels, the formulas work well. (If you have high level 20s that can do well in raids on MAJOR bosses, plz let the DM staff know that they need to fix something.)

You are incorrect Flaccid that the healing mechanism is "over the top." Now, let me clarify my position with the following example.

Test toon with 40 cleric levels and balanced for addressing BOTH the 1st and 3rd step of the healing mechanism. This toon takes:
  good + healing domains
  Epic spell pen    
  Epic Spell Focus enchantment
  EpskFoc: heal
  EpskFoc: conc

With 7 items equipped out of the 11 total possible gear slots, the toon has the following Skill_Conc and Skill_Heal numbers:

Skill_Conc   
43   base conc skills: 0 to 43
10   Epic skill focus: conc: 0 or +10
3   skill focus: conc: 0 or +3
2   Con Mod
37   items
= 95   without bard song

+ 13   bard song (limited by +50 skills cap)
= 108   


Skill_Heal   
43   base heal skills: 0 to 43
10   Epic skill focus: heal: 0 or +10
3   skill focus: heal: 0 or +3
14   Wisdom Modifier
25   items
95   without bard song

+ 15   bard song  (limited by +50 skills cap)
= 110   
    

Comparison to formulas using subtotal WITHOUT bard song:
1st step of healing process:
95   Skill_Conc
6   epic spell penetration
40   cleric levels

1d20 dice   Healer_Score
1   52
5   56
10   61
15   66
20   71

Looking at the healer toon's numbers and comparing to the numbers in the HealthPercentage_Factor table above, we see that even with a roll of 1, this toon (with 52 score) will auto-succeed in healing level 7 spells and down if target has at least 90% of health. And this is a roll of 1 ! This presumes that DMs do NOT make 1s be auto-failures!)

At the other end, with a roll of 20 (and presuming that DMs do NOT make 20s to be auto-success), then the healer toon has 71 score, which means that the test toon will auto-succeed on level 8 heals even if in combat and even if target only has 20% of health remaining.

Of course, the Skill_Conc and Skill_Heal will be higher than my test toon since you will put items into the last four gear slots.



And to step 3:

With 95 healing, one gets these numbers:
1d20   Amount healed
1    62
5    109
10    169
15    228
20    288

I ran the formula for 50,000 iterations and got these stats (using Excel's rubbish random number generator ------ so, remember Olle's comments about fat-tailed distributions!):

Mean   174.6823936 ======== not bad at all !!!!!
Median   169
Minimum   62
Maximum   288
Kurtosis   -1.209777717
Skewness   0.003923211
   


Notes and Comments:

Only 1 of the 7 items is a red item. This red item comes from a boss that I can kill with a sub20 toon. Unfortunately, I only went through and checked the items on half my mules and half my toons before I got bored (and joined a raid) ...


.... oooo the sky is blue ...... just like it was yesterday ...











.... and the day before ...... oooo the sky is still ..... pretty butterfly just flew by ....


















 

I reckon that I could find 4 more items, whether red or not to push these heal and conc numbers up a bit further.

Also, since I have not made a cleric and do not intend to ever make one, I generally don't hoard cleric-only items. So, as you can imagine, my available gear is somewhat limited.

Wis and Con modifiers could be enhanced with items to hit the +12 cap. If the remaining four empty gear slots are used just to maximize these two abilities, then one would get: 
8 Con Mod ------> 101 skill_Conc (without bard song)
18 Wis Mod ------> 99 Skill_Heal (without bard song)

One still has room to hit the +50 skill cap, using both more items and/or bard song. But, here, one must play a min-max game as to boosting the ability modifiers and the heal/conc skills.

Remember that toon with 30 bard levels and 100 perform can boost skills by +19. Also, the sum of the boost to a skill from items and from bard song are subject to the +50 skills cap.

As intended, the proposed healing mechanism forces players to make a healing powerbuild. Accordingly, the resulting healing toon will be very good with healing, but will be terrible as a grunt, hitter, caster, sneak and just about anything else.

Ultimately, this proposal means that any major raiding party will likely need 4 toons: 1 healer, 1 tank, 1 bard (with 30+ bard levels), 1 hitter (or AA). Since I prefer to promote teams, rather than solo or duo farming, the proposed healing mechanism is in line with my intent.

[Khaine]

I don't think I have ever seen anyone play a toon with 30+ bard lvls and 100+ perform (before using song), so balancing the mechanics around the assumption that every group will have one seems a little wrong.

Also, I've got a cleric toon, with a bit of +concentration items, but I've yet to find any good +heal skill items. Where did you get yours? :s

[NLawson]

leonardo drops some + heal items I think...there's a ring (I think it's a ring...) in the scavvy as well.

[Lief]

Howdy all,

My response:

1. build - specialization

This is a powerbuild server. Everyone specializes, especially when it comes to farming the tougher bosses. You already know this.

Having said this, I have to disagree with your conclusion, "so balancing the mechanics around the assumption that every group will have one seems a little wrong."

First, my test toon Florence only had 7 of 11 gear slots occupied. Even with F O U R gear slots open, she only needed 15 skill points from bard song. So, if Florence did not fill any of her remaining four gear slots with wis/con/heal/conc boosting items, she would only need a bard song from a toon with 26 bard levels and 80 perform  in order to hit the +50 skill cap.

And so .... by extension, if the remaining four gear slots are filled with items that boost wis, con, heal or conc, then the requirements of the singer (bard level + perform) would decrease proportionally. So, there is probably not a need for a 30 bard and thus you likely won't see one (unless the formulas are made tougher).

On the other hand, I am 99.9999999% sure that if players found an advantage to have the specialist healer wear little wis, con, heal or conc gear (</= 31 heal and </= 31 conc) and to have the bard compensate with bard song for +19 booost to skills via 30 bard/100 perform, then you can be sure that every raiding team will make a cleric and bard duo sub-team in this way. Indeed, it was not long ago that Middle Earth was overrun with helmed horrors and stone golems and then later with DD/pm toons.



2. long term concern about scripts that promote specialization

Ultimately, the healing mechanism, if tweaked to make it more difficult for players to game the formulas, would require players to more tightly coordinate their build + gear choice --- for both the healer and the supporting bard. This would be nothing new. Pre-wipe and post-wipe, you will remember duo (or more) raiding teams that coordinated in such a fashion from Aleph Red Eyes + Robin to Rune + Rasmus + Ron to ........ 

However, there is the possibility that DMs could introduce and implement additional scripts that promote certain build combos and themes with the result that players are channeled into specific build combos that would make GvM to homogeneous from a build perspective. Thus, these build specialization scripts can inadvertently suppress the creativity of players.

Also, I would fear that because of how tightly builds+gear choice MIGHT have to be coordinated across a WHOLE raiding team, "we" could inadvertently promote the formation of cliques, which in turn could lead to unnecessary fragmentation of the GvM community 



2. heal/conc items
Six of the seven items that I used to equip my test toon are not difficult to get and for the most part are unimpressive items.

You don't need my list of items, but I can guarantee you that a number of cleric lovers (for example, "anyone" the Greed Squad, Inner and etc) have more and better cleric oriented gear (for conc and heal) than I do. In fact, one person told me of an item that has +10 heal (when I was on earlier today), which could occupy 1 of Florence's remaining 4 open gear slots!! 

My apparent noobishness regarding cleric items has already convinced me that my formulas make it too easy for the healing specialists. The good thing is that if the DMs implement this, they can tweak the formula later.

OK, enough chatter from me - time to go back online.


ps: You know that you play too much GvM when something in real life reminds you of something in-game. Here, I just got reminded of Terrorble's hilarious NPC description for the serpent high priest.

[Lief]

btw, I read Flaccid's conclusion -"so balancing the mechanics around the assumption that every group will have one seems a little wrong" to mean this:

one = 30 bard 100 perform specifically

one <> bard in general

[Redaurora]

I've seen 10 hp healed per cleric level done as a spell change in many servers to heal and mass heal. a level 40 cleric would heal 400 health. This is similar to how more cleric levels get a bonus to heal checks with current kits.

When you have such a finite resource, It should really count, especially compared to current heal kits, and their healing output, to which every person in the group can reasonably contribute.

[azurerogue]

I do think that forcing people to overly specialize could EASILY lead to even more of a clique problem on the server.  Even good-natured people unwillingly contribute to this problem.  To use a personal example, I often run around with Sancho, NLawson, and Daccid.  But when they're not online, unless there is a big raid going on, I tend to just try to solo stuff (unless someone invites me on a party).  Is this me being elitist?  No, not really, I just don't invite myself into other people's parties. 

Does it come off as elitist to new players?  Probably, now that I think about it.  Forcing people to design specialized toons is fine - unless you force it to the degree that there is never ANY reason to play a general toon (even just for fun) because they suck so much.  This not only disorients new players, but also requires that most "vets" don't have any interest in bringing newbies along with them.  A concern in my book.

These changes would not, in themselves, cause this problem.  But they would further a problem that already exists, imo.

[Sancho29]

Azure has an extremely good point here.  It's true!  Generally,  I'll PM Azure, Lawson, and Daccid when I want to raid,  because we have made builds that compliment each other and we can knock out big areas without failure as long as we are careful.  Often times I find myself annoyed when the new guy with a lvl 33 that has AB too low to kill and AC too low to dodge simply appears a few feet from me,  demands that I invite him,  does NOT kill anything,  and rolls a 100 at the end and takes the best item.  I mean,  after having that happen a few times I start to plan "private" raids and "public" raids.   I do private raids with my crew of trusty BA's,  and when a few new guys reach a higher lvl, I'll do a public one with them and 'show them the ropes'.  Is this morally right?  (maybe not,  but neither are all the other things I do..*shrug*  one must carry on.)

So to end this,  I'd just like to reinforce that specialized builds make up nearly 100% of the farming teams.  We already HAVE super-healers that do fine, 'Guardian Angels' if you will. (heh)

I see no need to scale every type of build assuming that you are going to take 40 levels in it and only use one tactic.
 

[sestitodc]

We already HAVE super-healers that do fine, 'Guardian Angels' if you will. (heh).

I haven't played Guardian Angel for ages! :p