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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Future Talk (Moderator: Rade)  |  Core Class Boost
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Author Topic: Core Class Boost  (Read 13609 times)
radagast
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« on: 24 August 2010, 17:17 »

I cant help noticing that most of the decent class changes are in relation to the prestige classes.

I would like to see some done to the core classes to encourage more pure build types with some bonus to being say 35 or even 38 lvls of a core class nothing major or over powered but to keep up with the prestige classes. 

e.g.

Rogue - Conceal like sd or ab boost and conceal like assassin.

Ranger - They have a couple of changes already but ive never seen anyone use the call out option. Changes to their spells arent to bad. Perhaps an ac boost would be good

Fighter - possibly ab or ac boost like a high lvl wm gets

Bard - boost to a lvl 38 bard song would be nice or a decent side kick summons possibly.

Monk - again a decent ab like assassin or an increase in duration and conceal value tied into empty body skill with only 50 conceal its a waste of time as a ghost sash does as much and doesnt last that long.

Anyway you get the point others will probably be able to point out other improvements that could be made. Barbarians appear to be the only really decent boosted core class. Clerics already have an incentive to take to lvl 35 (for full divine favour) so maybe they are ok but the others rarely get take beyond lvl 40 and mostly are only used to fit the criteria for a couple of prestige classes. Prehaps a full lvl 40 core could be rewarded with something to compensate for not having any prestige abilities.

Any suggestions? Comments?
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azurerogue
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« Reply #1 on: 24 August 2010, 17:55 »

I disagree, to be honest. 

Rogues bag of tricks allows them to essentially cast Darkness 5x / Day, Mass Blindness/Deafness (at DC = Level) 5x / day, and Knockdown (at DC = Level) 5x / Day.  That's quite useful.  They also already get access to just about every skill (except things like Discipline), and a boatload of skill points.  The get Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion, Sneak Attacks, etc etc.  They're naturally pretty amazing - and the bag of tricks just adds to that.

Ranger can self-buff +7 AB at 37.  That's, erm, pretty sexy.  Especially since Bane of Enemies just gets better and better the more Ranger levels you take.  I have a few Ranger hitter builds in the works that can hit 64+ AB with no other classes (at least, no other AB-increasing classes).  That's while dual wielding, mind you.

Fighter is almost already worth taking.  They MAY not get anything super special, but weapons specialization and the fact that fighter probably has more access to awesome high level gear than ANY OTHER CLASS make it worth taking on its own merit.

I'm going to be honest - there's very little you could do to Bard to make it worth taking beyond, say 30, at most.  You'd have to buff it to the point of being overpowered - because Bards (to me) are MEANT to be multiclasses.  Why would a "jack of all trades" stick to one class for all his levels, especially when he qualifies for almost any prestige class?

Monks buffs are tricky because they have the potential to be so overpowered, even with low AB.  If this was a pure PvM environment it would be easier...  but in PvP monks are already obnoxious with their super fast move speed and hide / ms / discipline / tumble capabilities.  I don't really think they need a buff - or people will just combo them with other lame classes and people like me will rant until they get nerfed.



I could be wrong.  Fighter, as you said, could use some small bonus for taking lots of levels (could luck finding a balanced one).  The others all seems fine to me as they have their own incentives for going to 25+ in the class. 
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Account Name: .denikrut
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« Reply #2 on: 24 August 2010, 18:01 »

With regards to monks there is the monk set which I assume improves the monk in some way(s) on a per monk level basis. Problem is I don't know anyone to have found the set and it has been in the mod for quite a long time now, and as no-one has found it I guess no-one knows what it actually does either.

Ranger aid is nice.

Fighter did have a change pre-wipe but I think it was a little OTT and got removed and wasn't some item involved?
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NLawson
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« Reply #3 on: 24 August 2010, 20:05 »

Since we're talking about core class boosts, here's a nice one that NOBODY can possibly have any sort of problem with.

Remove the exp penalty for multiclassing =D
It does essentially nothing to stop builders, since anyone who wants to multiclass isn't gonna be put off by a little penalty, but it gets in the way and it's really annoying, especially when you're trying to train alongside people who DON'T get exp penalties, and they outlevel you.

And, it's a core class (and ONLY core class) boost, since prestige classes don't get a penalty.

And the best part is...everybody wins! There is no downside ^_^
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Sancho29
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« Reply #4 on: 24 August 2010, 20:17 »

YES!  Name three good VALID reasons that the multiclass penalty is there and I give whoever does it 1m gold.  It's useless here,  and like Lawson said...the people with you outlevel you,  and you have to go off solo or find a new party.   Most other servers have removed it,  we are behind the times.  And he is right,  when I make a build I ignore xp penalties...it's just when I'm lvling it that I get frustrated.
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radagast
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« Reply #5 on: 26 August 2010, 10:58 »

Well if core classes dont need any changes for really high lvls how come there are so few of them?

Rogue skills are good yes but people tend to just take a lvl or 2 to get them. Personally the only reason i ever take more than one or two is to get epic dodge and 9 monk 5 sd gets you that or a straight 10 sd.

Rangers i admit i'm not entirely clued up on.

Fighters are the same you only need min of 4 lvls to get epic weap spec other than feats there is little point in taking them to a really high lvl, a cleric or wm or as you point out a ranger can get a better ab than them.

The monk set is all well and nice if you can get it (only know of 1 person who has) and you have the time and luck to acquire it.

Anyway, just an idea as it just seemed to me that there are massive benefits for high lvl 25-30 assassins, sd, bg, dd's pms, wm etc and i just dont think enough almost pure classes get much benefit given that you dont even get bonus feats until you take 20 lvls of them. 

Again if they were worth building then there would be more of them.

Good idea NL i would be strongly in favour of that but then humans would become as popular as half-elves  laugh
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NLawson
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« Reply #6 on: 26 August 2010, 13:26 »

Good idea NL i would be strongly in favour of that but then humans would become as popular as half-elves  laugh


The only reason race factors into my builds at all is because they give ability bonuses XD
As I said - the exp penalty doesn't ever come into consideration when I'm making a build...I don't think "Oh it should be a dwarf because then it won't get a penalty", I think "Oh it should be a dwarf because they get a Con bonus and this build doesn't need Cha".
That's why none of my toons are EVER Half-Orc, because Dwarf can get pretty much the same Str bonus (by using the extra Con points) without losing Int.
Unless you want 20 Str (I'd rather have the extra HP and/or Skillpoints than an extra +1 ab and damage) Dwarf is the better choice...
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azurerogue
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« Reply #7 on: 26 August 2010, 15:51 »

Humans still have major advantages (1 extra feat, 1 extra skill is a big deal) even without the XP bit.

As for why there are not more high level base classes - I don't know.  I am currently working on 25+ of the following base classes:

Rogue, Monk, Ranger...  because they all have merits.  The Ranger will be a hitter, the Monk will be a soloer, and the Rogue will be a party support Rogue with some solo combat ability. 
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Terrorble
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« Reply #8 on: 27 August 2010, 00:18 »

The bag o' tricks wasn't really meant to do much for the rogues other than be entertaining and mildly useful. 

I really wish we had the call out feat years ago.  I think it would have been a significant in the PvP landscape.  It can be helpful if you assign it to F1 so you can spam it quickly on NPCs that you spot as they are sneaking toward you, or just after you KD them and they try to hide.

I've been promising something for months for fighters, maybe I'll finally get that in.

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NLawson
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« Reply #9 on: 27 August 2010, 01:53 »

Is that a "no" on the penalty then? XD
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Sancho29
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« Reply #10 on: 27 August 2010, 02:16 »

No,  it's the answer we get on 80% of the suggestion topics posted.  The DM's clearly said "                     


            !                           ,                                           ?

                             ."      Come on lawon,  have you even been listening?
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NLawson
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« Reply #11 on: 27 August 2010, 11:35 »

(Insert angry rant here)
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Terrorble
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« Reply #12 on: 29 August 2010, 23:27 »

I'd be a horrible politician, even though I did pretty well by just not addressing "all" the questions.

I ran the XP penalty thing by before and it didn't fly.  I think you could find that thread somewhere on these forums. 

The trade off I got was allowing players to earn faction XP bonuses.  Back before those, I remember leveling could still be done quickly, but it was still involved way more tedious grinding than it does now.
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NLawson
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« Reply #13 on: 30 August 2010, 02:07 »

By "Didn't fly" you mean people actually didn't want it removed?
I can't find the thread, but I'm sure the people making the arguments against removing it were drunk. I found something about exp penalty upon respawning (totally different), but that was a thread within a thread....it's hard >_<

Try running it now, see who complains =D

P.S.
It's not that I don't love the exp bonuses, and I wouldn't DREAM of asking for the penalty to be removed if it meant losing them too, but they're still not quite the same, because people with a penalty still end up with less exp at the end of the day...
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ollebroc
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« Reply #14 on: 30 August 2010, 06:53 »

When you mix classes and races that weren't meant to be mixed you get many bonuses. The XP penalty was created to compensate for these bonuses.

If you want to make a level 40 toon in two days, don't mix.

All of my toons receive the XP penalty. I know this before I make them, I expect it and except it. I see no need to remove it.
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Sancho29
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« Reply #15 on: 30 August 2010, 07:25 »

100k to the first person to correct olle's mistake.  My money is on Lawson,  he has a radar for this stuff.
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azurerogue
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« Reply #16 on: 30 August 2010, 07:56 »

except = accept. 

I wasn't going to say anything until the bounty was offered.
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NLawson
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« Reply #17 on: 30 August 2010, 17:45 »

So basically what you're saying, Olle, is "It wastes time for no reason, therefore there's no problem with keeping it, despite the fact that there's no real purpose to it and it doesn't do anything to help anybody in any way shape or form.", correct? And just because YOU are happy to accept the penalty means that everybody else will have to put up with it? That's nice on those who don't have much time to play, really. Nobody likes grinding, with or without an exp penalty, so I can't see any reason to force them to do it for longer when eventually they'll be the same level anyway. And for once I'm not talking about myself here - I have plenty of time to play.

Here's a question, how do you get a 20% time-delay in maximising a toon's level is equal to these unlimited duration bonuses...neat math there.

But I tell you what - if an exp penalty is an equaliser for mixing classes and races, give people the ability to change their alignment, and an 80% exp penalty if they do. We'll soon see whether it's a decent compensation for the bonuses received then, won't we. If it is, then none of the NPCs on the server should need adjusting in any way, right?

But hey, I'm not one to try to overturn a DM's decision by going behind their back...I think it's a rubbish excuse so I'll say so here. That answer is complete trash, Olle, because if the exp penalty was meant to compensate for the mixed-class bonuses then it's not doing it's job. Things that don't do their job should be fixed or removed.

P.S. Sancho - I was asleep when you guys were commenting, so I couldn't pick it up first =P

P.P.S Yes, I'm angry. Did it show? Ya think?
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« Reply #18 on: 31 August 2010, 01:14 »

Howdy,

Since I got the statement that 1SD builds won't get downgraded or otherwise be adversely affected, I'm not inclined to complain about having to kill a few more NPCs to make up for a mere 20% multiclass XP penalty.

In fact, before Terrorble gave keen senses to rangers, assassins and rogues, everyone of my toons were elves (except for melk, a DD build and Ysabeau, a halfling sneak developed with Endless et al.). So, I had LOTS of fun with the 20% multiclass xp penalty. Moreover, since I've already made several toons with 40% multiclass xp penalty, I can say that it is annoying, but not a game changer for me. For example, postwipe and off the top of my little old head, there are three toons:

Solenne1: pally 32 rogue 2 fighter 6 (elf, longsword) - at level 36 or so atm
Solenne2: pally 32 rogue 2 fighter 6 (elf, b-swd) - at level 32 or so atm
Kirsten: ranger 30 fighter 8 bard 2 (elf, scimmy) - at level 40 and about 1,2 million xp atm


Considering that you're only complaining about a 20% multiclass xp penalty and that the faction xp bonus has been as high as 120 percent (or higher?), well ............. Well, that's my 0.13576 yuan renminbi (2010.08.30, 19:06 EST).

ciao,
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Lief
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« Reply #19 on: 31 August 2010, 01:30 »

Ooops, sorry radagast.
mea culpa, mea culpa. I didn't mean to contribute to the hijacking of your thread.

I have one saving grace comment.

One could have a DM go through the item list. As appropriate, pick out and modify uber items so that a particular uber item can only be used by a toon with 38+ ranger levels, for example.

I have no idea how one does it. But, Red had the BD store that had the outrageously uber items which required builds that are 95% pure (=38/40). Also, at least one current item has 50 bluff on it laugh

Anyway, since 90%+ of the players on GvM are item hoarders, I am very very very very very very very certain that if uber items required an almost pure build, it will be so  Grin

Phew ... Hope I saved myself from being called a hijacker.
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azurerogue
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« Reply #20 on: 31 August 2010, 06:35 »

STFU, Hijacker!  </random>

I think encouraging use of classes through items is fine
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radagast
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« Reply #21 on: 31 August 2010, 14:41 »

I was going to call you a hijacker but Az beat me to it  laugh

I like the idea of high lvl core class items available but in the BD store! Perhaps having them in os would be better and if they are good enough they will encourage more pure builds..

I find the discussion on the xp penalty interesting so i dont really care about hijacking as olle pretty much gave me a no anyway  Smiley
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Redaurora
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« Reply #22 on: 31 August 2010, 15:37 »

Personally, I believe in positive reinforcement, rather than negative reinforcement, how about instead people who have more levels in their favoured class than any other class gain 5% bonus xp! (yes, i stole this idea from somewhere else).

similar effect achieved, but instead of RAWR, we have YAY.
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Sancho29
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« Reply #23 on: 31 August 2010, 16:37 »

0.0     Why has nobody ever thought of that?!  Great idea Red!
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radagast
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« Reply #24 on: 31 August 2010, 16:54 »

Hmm i like the sound of that as well  Grin
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