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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Future Talk (Moderator: Rade)  |  curses - blinding my eyes !
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Author Topic: curses - blinding my eyes !  (Read 4292 times)
Lief
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« on: 31 August 2010, 01:38 »

Howdy,

While fighting a boss yesterday, I was again reminded of a particular idiosyncracy of NWN. While laying dead, my corpse was sending out party chatter about locations of NPCs/etc. Then an NPC walked by and caused me to make a save, which I failed. Thereupon, I was blinded and useless to the team effort (in my mind) for the next several rounds. This got me thinking.


WHAT ?
So, what if there was a script that introduces the outdated concept of Command, Control and Communication to GvM? In particular, this script would automatically cause players to be blinded (and deaf) if and when they die. With regard to implementation, the script will make the screen black and the dead player deaf either automatically OR by causing an auto failure to a save, whether to a particular save or force a save roll vs multiple saves (cf. great thunderclap).

Moreover, the duration of the blindness and deafness will either be fixed to some very long period, e.g. 999 turns, or be ended by cessation of battle music. Personally, I think the first is the better alternative since players can stop the battle music by running to the other end of the map, e.g. haradrim black cavern, or leave the map altogether. 

Finally, rezzing naturally will remove the blindness and deafness. Incidentally, one must consider how to treat those conditions that death can not and will not remove; for example, some conditions require that the player jump in the pool in Eru's or take some other, specific action. This proposal does not addresses these specific conditions.

Notes:
  a. great thunderclap forces one to make reflex/fort/will saves regarding three diff effects. Here, the blind/deaf script could have the effect from ANY of the three saves be the same result, i.e. deaf and blind.

  b. Does deafness prevent players from receiving what would normally be outputted to the chat window? From memory, I believe that deafness does NOT prevent text from appearing in the chat window. In fact, the only thing that deafness seems to do for a player is to protect from curse song. In any event, if deafness does not prevent text from being outputted to the chat window, then one can ignore the deafness component of this on_Death proposal.


WHY ?
1. For both party PvP and party PvM, players must (ok, should) coordinate BEFORE engaging in combat. Specifically, once a player is killed, any further communication to/from that player will cease. This would disrupt planning and implementation of tactics. In short, pre-planning would require players to interact to a greater extent than they do already. This can only be good for the GvM community.

2. Such a script would reduce metagaming and account for the "unfairness" in favor of players against the helpless NPCs (and against enemy players). If the word unfairness seems inappropriate, one may substitute the word unrealistic (to the extent that one can use such a term in a computer game).

3. This script, in theory, could encourage DMs to re-consider the upgrading of the uberness of the various and sundry bosses that are vulnerable to zerg attacks. A zerg attack is an attack in which a large number of players just charge enemy NPCs and/or players with little coordination.

4. Finally, this script would make certain loquacious players quiet for a change  Roll Eyes


ciao,
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Sancho29
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« Reply #1 on: 31 August 2010, 04:30 »

There are a lot of very wonderful and well staffed RP servers that would love/already do things like this.

HOWEVER

are you kidding???

If I want to metagame,  I (or anyone else) can do it.  Being able to talk while dead is not a massive problem and is not going to kill a boss any more than yelling curse words at the WK will make him cry.  I would hope that the DM's take the usual approach here and just ignore us,  but if for some reason this is going to be put in effect, at least ask who wants/does not want this. 


PS:  why are you suggesting so many nerfs Marcus?  I mean I like a challenge as much as the next guy but there is a line.  The temple of doom is a good example,  where Elite teams test skill and communication.  But something like this that effects every area would make it even harder for the large numbers of new players to gain a footing.  I have (and may others have)  been tirelessley trying to explain that no, you should not read the wiki for info and countless other "by the way, you should know..." type things on this server.  Some of the new guys are downright lost, let's not scare them away with extreme things made to challenge our "Elite" base of players.  ( mostly self proclaimed by the looks of it lol )
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« Reply #2 on: 31 August 2010, 13:47 »

^
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radagast
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« Reply #3 on: 31 August 2010, 14:34 »

Sorry Marcus old bud but i have to agree with NL, alot of things have changed alot of new areas added etc and like him i feel i spend half my time on the server telling people what they are  Roll Eyes
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NLawson
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« Reply #4 on: 31 August 2010, 17:47 »

Sorry Marcus old bud but i have to agree with NL...

O_O I didn't even SAY anything this time....

Are you spying on me?

But yeah I'm with Sancho on this one...the whole "talking while dead" thing doesn't really help except against NPCs (because no PC who is hunting groups is going to sit next to a dead guy and make it EASY). and all it does then is allow the other players to get in, rez you, and get out without dying.

Also - there are SO many ways for this to mess up unnecessarily. Here are a few:
What if the blind fails to be removed upon rez? Blind for no reason, and highly likely to die again shortly after.
What if a remove blindness hits while you're lying there, and you can see again? Wouldn't that render it useless?
What if the battle music ends because everyone swaps maps, and you can suddenly see all the NPCs again...doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of this change?
What if, because you're blind, you have no idea what's around you? You get rezzed, you run back the way you came, straight into a large mob, and get absolutely mutilated. More work to re-rez you.

And also, as Sancho said, this is not an RP server. That's specifically WHY I play it, I don't like RP all that much, I just want to fight some monsters and sometimes players alongside some cool guys, because the single player thing got boring.

As for your 4 reasons:

1) Yeah, sure we communicate...sometimes even when we do that we get killed anyway. If you make people unable to see NPCs and unable to read text in the chat box (which was the aim of the deafness part) HOW is that supposed to increase communication? All that does is make people seek alternate methods of communication, like coming up with codes for voice chat (If I use my cheer, then it's clear to run).

2) And WHERE are you getting the idea that the NPCs are getting the short end of the stick in ANYTHING? They have huge mobs of 20+ people, we have 3-6 guys. They have multiple casters, we have 1 or 2 max. They have insane abilities (like hipsing as they get kded, or immunity to things we can't even hope for, or uber-traps sitting in their areas that never get used up), we have standard stuff. It generally takes at least 2 guys, usually 3 or 4, to take down the bosses on this server. For those that can be soloed, it either takes one VERY skilled toon, or special tactics. I can't walk up to Imrahil on my best all-around toon and have a fair fight with him, because he'd kick my ass. NPCs are better than us, and that's just how it is. This is why we group up in the first place.

3) You CAN'T upgrade something so that it's no longer vulnerable to a zerg attack without making it pretty much impossible to kill. Take the witch king - my hitter can take him and his room down, slowly, over a period of maybe 5-10 minutes, depending on how lucky my rolls are. A zerg can take his room down in about 30 seconds, but if no one has the ability to tank the WK for a short time, they're all quite likely to die anyway. Also - not many people like zergs, because when an item DOES drop you get virtually no chance to get it... and that's a big part of a raid for me. I don't charge into enemy territory just to get some other lucky sod 12k exp for the toon he hasn't taken out of the pocket yet.

4) So you want to increase communication but you want people who talk a lot (hi there) to shut up? Make up your mind - do you want MORE communication or LESS?
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Khaine
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« Reply #5 on: 31 August 2010, 21:04 »

Howdy,

While fighting a boss yesterday, I was again reminded of a particular idiosyncracy of NWN. While laying dead, my corpse was sending out party chatter about locations of NPCs/etc. Then an NPC walked by and caused me to make a save, which I failed. Thereupon, I was blinded and useless to the team effort (in my mind) for the next several rounds. This got me thinking.


WHAT ?
So, what if there was a script that introduces the outdated concept of Command, Control and Communication to GvM? In particular, this script would automatically cause players to be blinded (and deaf) if and when they die. With regard to implementation, the script will make the screen black and the dead player deaf either automatically OR by causing an auto failure to a save, whether to a particular save or force a save roll vs multiple saves (cf. great thunderclap).

Moreover, the duration of the blindness and deafness will either be fixed to some very long period, e.g. 999 turns, or be ended by cessation of battle music. Personally, I think the first is the better alternative since players can stop the battle music by running to the other end of the map, e.g. haradrim black cavern, or leave the map altogether. 

Finally, rezzing naturally will remove the blindness and deafness. Incidentally, one must consider how to treat those conditions that death can not and will not remove; for example, some conditions require that the player jump in the pool in Eru's or take some other, specific action. This proposal does not addresses these specific conditions.

Notes:
  a. great thunderclap forces one to make reflex/fort/will saves regarding three diff effects. Here, the blind/deaf script could have the effect from ANY of the three saves be the same result, i.e. deaf and blind.

  b. Does deafness prevent players from receiving what would normally be outputted to the chat window? From memory, I believe that deafness does NOT prevent text from appearing in the chat window. In fact, the only thing that deafness seems to do for a player is to protect from curse song. In any event, if deafness does not prevent text from being outputted to the chat window, then one can ignore the deafness component of this on_Death proposal.


WHY ?
1. For both party PvP and party PvM, players must (ok, should) coordinate BEFORE engaging in combat. Specifically, once a player is killed, any further communication to/from that player will cease. This would disrupt planning and implementation of tactics. In short, pre-planning would require players to interact to a greater extent than they do already. This can only be good for the GvM community.

2. Such a script would reduce metagaming and account for the "unfairness" in favor of players against the helpless NPCs (and against enemy players). If the word unfairness seems inappropriate, one may substitute the word unrealistic (to the extent that one can use such a term in a computer game).

3. This script, in theory, could encourage DMs to re-consider the upgrading of the uberness of the various and sundry bosses that are vulnerable to zerg attacks. A zerg attack is an attack in which a large number of players just charge enemy NPCs and/or players with little coordination.

4. Finally, this script would make certain loquacious players quiet for a change  Roll Eyes


ciao,

No.
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Lief
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« Reply #6 on: 31 August 2010, 22:34 »

Howdy,

Thanks for responding.

1. Sancho

  a. ideas vs. "why are you suggesting so many nerfs"
As I've said before, I like ideas. Silly ideas will be ignored. Unreasonable ideas will be countered by argument. All other ideas will be debated and possibly implemented. This is the whole reason for the FUTURE forums.

Regarding the "proposal: HIPS capability" posting in greater detail, you will note the first two sentences: "A suggestion was made to move the HIPS capability to a higher SD level. The author opposes such a move." From this, I thought that I made it explicitly clear that I did not favor moving the HIPS capability to a higher level, which I would define as a nerf. Instead, this HIPS posting merely stated a proposal IN THE EVENT THAT DMs decide to make the aforementioned move.

You're free to point out any other proposals of mine that you deem to be a nerf. Other than proposals about killing the melee cleric build, I don't think my previous proposals were nerfs per se.

  b. RP
Perhaps my use of the word "metagaming" created the wrong impression. This proposal has nothing to do with RP, which is not my cup of tea. As stated in the proposal, this script is meant to challenge players to pre-plan their attack and not to rely on the ability to dynamically communicate up-to-date info about enemy NPCs/PCs since death can and will occur to players.

  c. the one-armed economist
Here, you've stated that "eing able to talk while dead is ... not going to kill a boss any more than yelling curse words at the WK," which seems to imply that the you think that this Blind_onDeath script should have no effect on the killing of bosses. But, on the other hand, you state that this proposal has crossed the line, which seems to imply that the Blind_onDeath script could make the bosses too difficult.

I will agree with your second statement. This Blind_onDeath script has the potential to make the bosses too difficult. However, this is where DMs will have to use their judgment after some beta testing. As you know, Dale initially was impossible with the very quick respawn times and the ToD was also impossible according to player comments when it was first introduced. Both maps have since been tweaked.

Having said this, DMs, presuming that there is interest, will have to decide where to put this script. Perhaps ToD is not an appropriate map. But, perhaps, the maps with the WK (see NLawson's posting), Aragorn (working off of NLawson's implicit suggestion), the Balrog, Prince Cardolin or Old Man Willow might be. Others? Moreover, in addition to tweaking this Blind_onDeath script, presuming that it would ever be implemented, DMs can also remove it, cf. original HIPS timer.
 
  d. implementation
You stated: "ut something like this that effects every area would make it even harder for the large numbers of new players to gain a footing." Although my proposal focused exclusively on bosses, I didn't directly address this. Nevertheless, you are right to stress that this Blind_onDeath script should not apply to non-boss areas ... or by extension to all boss areas.   



2. radagast
Interesting. 



3. NLawson

  a. "the whole "talking while dead" thing doesn't really help except against NPCs"
With regard to group PvP specifically, I must disagree. If my dead toon can see that Turril's lame twinked dragon RIGHT NOW looks like he needs to rebuff and that he is heading RIGHT NOW to the north east corner of osgiliath, then I can tell my mates to make haste RIGHT NOW to pwn him while he is resting (or at least while he has deshifted) !!!! There are so many possibilities if one has up-to-date information RIGHT NOW about the enemy ... otherwise, the fog of war will hamper one's ability to capitalize on any opportunities that may present themselves.

  b. script implementation
I'm not a scripter. I only posted references to the scripts in previous postings so that the DMs realized that I did my homework (or tried to). In any event, errors in removal of blindness and script firing will be directly attributed to the DM scripter and/or the fact that the server has been running for 24+ hours straight.

You stated: "What if the battle music ends because everyone swaps maps..."
This is why I wrote: "Personally, I think the first is the better alternative," where "the first" refers to a fixed time period of 999 turns, rather than using a condition (i.e. battle music).

  c. reasons
    i. "unable to read text in the chat box" - I strongly believe that you cannot prevent chat from going to the chat box. I was merely speculating about the possible use of deafness. In any event, this is not so important. Indeed, the continued use of the chat box if and when a player dies is irrelevant for the simple reason that the continued chatter is not at issue, but rather the DYNAMIC access to UP-TO-DATE info about movement, status and possible intentions of enemy NPCs/players. Without being able to see, it makes it harder to have access to this up-to-date information.

  ii. The Blind_onDeath script is supposed to promote communication that occurs BEFORE the fight begins since players *would know* that the script will greatly limit the amount of useful up-to-date information that come from dead players AFTER the fight begins.

  iii. short end of the stick
The Blind_onDeath script is meant primarily to increase the challenge of specific bosses on specific maps. From your posting, it seems that the WK is too easy. Perhaps this script will make him a bit more challenging?

  iv. "For those that can be soloed ... one VERY skilled toon, or special tactics"
Depending on the uberness of the gear on particular bosses, I think DMs should make it challenging enough that one requires 3, 4 or more players. No high level boss with uber gear should be solo-able.

However, I do agree with the second point regarding tactics. For those bosses that are too easy, perhaps DMs could implement the Blind_onDeath script instead of making the boss even more uber ? THIS is the core of my proposal.

  vi. zerg attacks
Well, we all know that zerg attacks fail against the BD map with Herumor, Furnor and Azwyrn as well as the ToD. However, well coordinated attacks against the former has been shown to yield victory and loot. (I have heard that recent ToD raids have not been optimally coordinated.)

 vii. "to increase communication"
This is a joke; I thought the eye rolling would make this clear. And yes, I do talk too much  Grin



4. Khaine
I can't respond to a mere "[n]o" response.


5. multiboxers
I'd like to hear input from multiboxers like Dumbledore and Bri and any others that may not be so well known.


Ciao,
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Lief
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« Reply #7 on: 31 August 2010, 22:36 »

Except for the text in red, the rest of the text should be plain. I don't know why part of my posting is bolded (white) ?
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« Reply #8 on: 31 August 2010, 23:00 »

*sigh* by "My hitter can slowly kill WK and his room" I meant, "My hitter can slowly reduce the HP of every NPC in that room, as long as somebody is tanking them".
My point had NOTHING to do with that. It was all about the speed difference. 1 hitter = slow, 5 hitters = fast. That's the only difference between a zerg and a small team (aside form a small increase in drop chance and a large decrease in roll-winning chance), that you kill things faster.

If you kill them fast enough, you don't need a tank.

My point was, if you make something IMMUNE TO ZERGING, then you also make it IMMUNE TO ALL TEAMS, because if a zerg with 5 hitters and a healer and a mage and a tank and whatever can't kill it, then no small team, however well built, will possibly be able to take it.
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« Reply #9 on: 01 September 2010, 10:13 »

"O_O I didn't even SAY anything this time...."

Lol sorry i meant sancho.. but any one except marcus would have been acceptable  wink

He is evil and surely everyone knows he needs to be destoyed  Evil
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