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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Future Talk (Moderator: Rade)  |  Conceal
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Author Topic: Conceal  (Read 6412 times)
pinkpuff
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« on: 16 October 2010, 22:46 »

So I'm sure I won't garner a ton of fans for posting this but for those who know me know I don't care all that much...so here goes!

Conceal, its the new black! Err DR I mean.

Seems kind of funny to me that we had a total server wipe to get rid of all the dr items (among others things...) and have now replaced it with conceal, which actually seems more effective.

Pre wipe to make a truly effective dr tank you needed very specific items and very specific crit immune builds. Or to make a ac tank you still pretty much needed the same thing (corsair captain robe when it had +50 or so parry).

Now all you need is 25+sd and don't even have to worry about slay anymore! Not that if npc's still had it they could hit you anyways, 100ac, 85% conceal and Epic Dodge makes for a pretty invincible toon.

I bring this up because I was asked a couple weeks ago if the faction cities were too easy. And the truth is they aren't easy at all, unless you have a conceal tank standing there soaking up every attack in which case they are doable with 2 people. Pretty much every area is.

I guess all said and done i'm just wondering why certain builds of the past were deemed too powerful, they were nerfed to the point of useless, and then finally replaced by something even better? I'd just hate to see more 80+ac npc's added in just so they can not die so fast when being fronted by a conceal tank, or see the cities get a huge boost to thwart one toon type and have everyone else suffer.

It's an amazingly interesting concept for mega conceal, but I'm not sure there's a more overpowered ability on the server. Even the summon can tank big bosses for awhile and it's half as effective as the summoner.
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ollebroc
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« Reply #1 on: 16 October 2010, 23:35 »

Don't worry about the Concealers, they don't realize they've been setup to fall......................HARD!!  Evil
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sestitodc
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« Reply #2 on: 16 October 2010, 23:53 »

Meh. After they nerf conceal tanks, their will just be a new tank build that does well, until eventually that gets nerfed too. It's sort of been a never-ending cycle.

Several of us played DD construct tanks, but that ended up getting nerfed twice. So then everyone moved on to wiz/pm/dd tanks, but that got nerfed twice. And now it's the bard/pm/sd. I'm sorta surprised the sd builds have survived this long.

One other note, in some of the tougher areas, the sorcs (or the bosses themselves) can dispel the shadow evade anyway. In Rivendell I don't always even bother buffing shadow evade because the sorcs insta-dispel it, and in Dale I'm sometimes on my last shadow evade before we even start bashing the gate.
« Last Edit: 17 October 2010, 00:07 by sestitodc » Logged
-firecracker-
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« Reply #3 on: 17 October 2010, 00:15 »

I have to admit, and now it has been posted I will voice it, I always thought the new conceal tank is a little overpowered...AC tanks still work - its just that still no-one generally believes in them because they are harder to play (and other tanks work better because they tend to be easier to play - e.g. the pre nerf DD with wounding whipsers pots - still works pretty well though, but not so much the construct) So, the party heal factor becomes a little more critical...

These conceal tanks have become the unhittable no matter how much AB or damage the NPC (or even in pvp) has...

With regards to feats being dispelled, I have also been on the receiving end of blinding speed and the PM draco summon being dispelled by various dispel spells - kind of annoying Cheesy

The problem (IMO) only arrises when A) the tank can solo a boss (e.g. the wounding whipsers pot route) or when in party conditions like cities and those really tough boss areas - the tank doenst get hit...the couple of areas this generally fails on however is BD main room and maybe ToD (because as ses has pointed out the shadow evade gets diseplled) - however lag tends to kill off half the party in BD room due to all the summons Sad

Having said that, I don;t want to see a nerf that will kill off the build, like others have, the SD changes are pretty cool and may just need a tweak of the conceal value
« Last Edit: 18 October 2010, 19:23 by -firecracker- » Logged
tonoplast
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« Reply #4 on: 17 October 2010, 04:17 »

This server has lead us to build more focused builds over the past few years. So a specific tank can only tank, hitters can only hit (I'm sure there are builds that have decent AC with high AB and damage, but they can't quite tank bosses). And now it seems like a designated healer is good on the side.

To be honest, I think it would be nice to see different tank builds able to tank different stuff. I don't quite know why constructs got nerfed (lowering immunities) and making them useless. They can't even drink WW pots anyway! They can't hit, all they do is getting hit with 40 ac. Like for aragorn, if you're taking 60 damage per hit, + 30-80 irresistible damager per hit, 4~5 times a round = gg pretty much. Same for DD PM tanks, they don't even last half a minute with aragorn. Could work if you just make ww pots not useable by PMs, without adding those +hax damage vs PM or lowering immunities from constructs.

For SD tanks, or all other tanks mentioned above, they are really difficult to level to begin with. They get no AB, they can't do anything solo (especially SD tank). Sure he won't get hit but he wont hit either. Lower HP compared to DR tanks. Can't solo anything anyway!

AC tanks could work but they get hit on 20s no matter what. but 85% conceal + epic dodge makes those 20s much less likely to happen. Besides, if you get flatfooted for some reason, blinded etc, tanks will die quickly, more for AC tanks I guess. Tank dies = raid dies, and like tough areas such as TOD, if tank dies and wipes, it's such a pain to get back there too. Seems like it respawns pretty fast too, so you might as well redo the whole raid.

With GS nerf, which makes u stuck in one place and die (or bugs and die regardless), or ethereal nerf that lasts only 1 round now (similar to time stop nerf, that lasts 1~3 rounds), party members can only rely on tanks to aggro boss / mobs. I think all the more, they should be left alone or even, get those DD  / construct tanks useful again so they can tank / off tank. (just make ww pots unusable by them, already did for constructs).


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pinkpuff
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« Reply #5 on: 17 October 2010, 06:14 »

I just remember before the conceal, before the dd contsructs, before the pm parry builds, before the risens....

you basically had 1 crit immune party member that you hoped would live long enough for the party to do enough damage and more often than not you'd still have to rest at least once. When the big bosses had enough ab to smash 1-2 people no problem, and slay...I hated it, but thought it was very much necessary for bosses.

Now its kinda bleh, raiding the faction cities and doing hard bosses is about as thrilling as house of stewards. Well ok, not that bad, but still lacks the luster it once had.

And based on Olle's post it sounds like something is up, which is fine but i'd definitely recommend not ruining the builds completely. Constructs, pretty much ruined. Risens, what are those? Let's try not to go the same route this time! 85% down to 65-70 sounds fine with me, auto evade strip on entering or a castable evade strip would be really lame.
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Terrorble
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« Reply #6 on: 17 October 2010, 06:25 »

Balancing tanks in this game is ridiculously complicated.  It's like trying to run a mile and hold your breath, I'm pretty sure nobody has done it.

When I worked on shadow evade, I wanted an ability that scaled with SD level and made taking more levels of it worth it.  Having never experienced 90% concealment, it was difficult to fathom the possibilities.  I think better control over/use of NPC casters would allow me to attack conceal tanks from a different angle that doesn't care about their DR, AC, or concealment.  The theory sounds nice.

All I know is that if we make a boss deal more damage to hurt a DR tank, it then kills everything else in 3 hits.  If we raise it's AB to deal with AC tanks, it never misses and kills everything else.  If we raise it's AC to deal with dedicated hitters, only dedicated hitters or 20s hit it.  (counter for the conceal tank?? spells?)  So what do you do, power up the bosses or nerf the tanks?  Seems we do both.
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Redaurora
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« Reply #7 on: 17 October 2010, 06:53 »

True Strike
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Redaurora
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« Reply #8 on: 17 October 2010, 07:25 »

Imo the conceal should be reduced as well, just in moderation, the lower the conceal is, the greater the effect blind fight has, a conceal tank imo is more than just high conceal even as is for the tougher stuff.

As far as I can see there are 6 ways to tank.

- Ac
- Conceal
- Hp
- Parry (often used as a secondary method as icing on the cake)
- Kiting
- Dr

AC
is beaten by: Spells, High ab.

Conceal
is beaten by: Spells, Dispells.

Hp is beaten by: Spells, lots of damage.

Parry
is beaten by: Spells, many attacks per round.

Kiting
is beaten by: Spells, tends to be self defeating, but there are times when it works. High speed.

Dr
is beaten by: Spells, Special damage (divine might etc), SpecialIZED damage (lots of one type), crits.

Imo Dwarven defenders would be good for the Hp/dr niche, Defensive stance could add X (lots, assuming the DD will take lots of damage) temp hp per DD level!
« Last Edit: 17 October 2010, 07:30 by Redaurora » Logged
radagast
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« Reply #9 on: 18 October 2010, 11:38 »

Not again  huh

Terrorble and Redaurora are right, you CANT do anything about dedicated tanks and hitters, you pretty much wiped out solo play to any great degree in favour of party play and now your changing things again! For what huge party play?

If you cant build a dedicated tank then theres not much point in playing is there? Any other build will be eaten up and you would never be able to take on the bosses unless you have big number playing and on a nightime in the uk your lucky to get anymore than 8 who you would have to hope were of your faction and had the time to go raiding, a hard task on most nights.

Players play (and build) to beat the game, if they cant do that or every time they do it gets nerfed they will just stop playing (as many have).

Get a grip on the nerfing all the time, geez even playing pen and paper D&D its standard to build a party with Tank, Hitter, Mage and healer and thief so what do you expect people to do? Can an sd tank solo the big bosses? of course not.

Olle your NOT funny and it pisses me off that yet another large chunk of my toons are about to become nerfed because the staff arent working out the consequences of the changes THEY make.

I would be happy if the staff spent more time finishing and tweaking the module rather than trying to beat the players, again for the hard of hearing IF PLAYERS CANT WIN THEY WONT PLAY!

The list of nerfs since the wipe are endless no sooner do you add something to a class only to take it away a few weeks later.

You will always get people who party sololy for farming purposes and build dedicated this and that you cant stop it.

Rant over.

PP sad to see your back to your compaining best and... i dont care that much either.  Evil

Lets not go back to changing the server for those who whinge loudest.  Grin
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azurerogue
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« Reply #10 on: 18 October 2010, 15:46 »

Meh, 85-90% conceal really CANNOT be beaten without smarter spell AI - that's the only real "mistake" here (NWN's AI being generally stupid when it comes to spells, I mean).  

Also, it would be nice if AC / DR tanks could be back on par with conceal tanks.  This is one of those few times I'd rather see something (AC/DR builds) buffed rather than something else nerfed.  

EDIT: Or maybe nerf shadow evade in some other way to try to help make it more vulnerable to spells.  Make it lower SR to 0, remove spell mantles, or something like that.  MAKE conceal tanks very vulnerable to spells (even more so than they are now) so that they HAVE to have a weakness.  Give other types of tanks something to be proud of again!
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« Reply #11 on: 20 October 2010, 14:07 »

Not again  huh


Players play (and build) to beat the game, if they cant do that or every time they do it gets nerfed they will just stop playing (as many have).

Olle your NOT funny

   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Good Points Rad just quoted 2 favorites Cheesy.  Sowhat If Players make team oriented toons that work reliably? Or even solo toons? the dm dissapointment with this always baffled  and frustrated me.. so I quit playing Grin
« Last Edit: 20 October 2010, 14:17 by Endlessorrow » Logged
parknutz
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« Reply #12 on: 22 October 2010, 21:53 »


I got so bored with the build I banked both of my tanks xp because they just weren't exciting to play. Really just used them to get the XP bonus up. Terror has done a great job in enhancing certain aspects of every class. Trying to balance them all is an ongoing work in progress. 

I mentioned to someone that if we could institute PnP True Strike into NWN that would have an equalizer in the mod. True Strike negates all concealment in PnP. If that got worked into the game i think it might even the playing field on both sides.

Everything needs to have a weakness as well as a strength.
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sestitodc
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« Reply #13 on: 22 October 2010, 22:59 »

Everything needs to have a weakness as well as a strength.

Omw with a bard10/rdd30 :p
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azurerogue
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« Reply #14 on: 22 October 2010, 23:17 »

It's an undocumented change, but RDD 30 can summon DM Turril to wtfpwn stuff.  /sarcasm
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« Reply #15 on: 27 October 2010, 08:03 »

LOL pink and Tono are back playing and i see NOTHING has changed...too funny!
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tonoplast
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« Reply #16 on: 27 October 2010, 09:44 »

Things have changed Tongue

but hey charlie, long time no see!
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