HIPS, SD's vs spot/listen

[-firecracker-]

mmm, I have an epic lizard shifter with 96 listen (keen sense - could be 106 if i relevel last level for epic listen but assumed that was unnecessary), but still level 30 orc pcs (those in Dol Gudlor for example) can still hips past that. Am I missing something or is the SD class really that broken? No wonder the only way to go vs hipsers is pure TS build (dragon) or spell casters (cleric) - do spotters actually work or is the listen/spot skill useless (e.g. pile on the TS items)...kind of hard for shifters...

Meh...

I would really like to know the hide/ms skill of some of these npcs, let alone the higher level npcs such as the various wraiths/wraith boss in MM etc...I hoped that this new build could be an semi-alternative to a PM tank, but if low level hipsers are causing action cancel/flank bonus it's kind of impractical due to a shifte'rs lack of ability to get uncanny dodge.

[ollebroc]

I've made most of my toons spotters. You need to put points in both spot and listen to see just about anything, even the invisible you can sometimes get a glimpse of. You get a bonus if you use both, small but a bonus. There's a few hipsters who have hide and move in the 100s that I sometimes can't spot but it's only a few. I always see Marcus's toons, I just pretend I don't to lure him in.

Some areas have a plus/minus to spot and listen. It's based on lighting and terrain.

Those orcs can be spotted. I sometimes think they're broken cuz they're walking so slow. I forget they're hipsing. Orcs with their silly walk!!!

[-firecracker-]

It would make more sence if it took the highest score of hide/ms - if you fail to spot/listen then it goes onto the lowest of the two. It's too easy to make a SD/rogue with uber hide/MS just because they get access to both, most classes with spot ability only get access to one. Oh well...

[radagast]

Only a few over 100 olle? I wouldnt even call that a hisper 

Even my str based sd gets over 100 and thats with standard gear on 

[pinkpuff]

No, something is broken with listen, I noticed it on my lizard too and I had around the same total listen score. Even crap npc's would still be able to hide again very easily.

Spot on the other hand works just fine. I had a tenser construct that got 95 spot and saw everything all the time and nothing could re hide once spotted, including marcus. That was a fun incident, 2 lame sd's smashed in 11 minutes, has he even been back since then?

[Terrorble]

I don't have hard evidence to back it, but I tend to agree that spot is more reliable than listen.  With my spotters, things tend to either not disappear at all, or come back quickly if they do.

Mordor Orc Cutter: 25/36 hide/ms
Mordor Orc Warrior: 35/15 hide/ms
Mordor Orc Archer: 35/31 hide/ms

The archers get about +21 from DEX/feats, but the other two get very little.

So clearly, not a skill point issue.

I had hoped keen sense would solve stuff like this, but I think there are some fundamental issues with the core game mechanics of how stealth checks are made.  Grrrr, this topic has always been a sore spot for me with NWN.

[pinkpuff]

Those NPC's are a perfect example of things that will hide from someone with 90+ listen. I'm wondering if keen senses doesn't work the same for listen as it does for spot?

[-firecracker-]

I'll sometime get around to making an epic drow version of the build with spot instead of listen.

Not really ideal as there are one or two nice items that really suite the listen/shifter builds if your 3rd class has listen especially bard. Not come across many such spot items, they would mostly be items you would equip while trying to spot and not wear all the time as shifters have to do.

If spotting stuff 'works' I guess it's definately goto be a bug with listen/keen sense.

[pinkpuff]

I had a wm/drow and can tell you that 90+ spot worked just fine.

If you really want to test just have someone use the test area with you.