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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Future Talk (Moderator: Rade)  |  PM summons
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Author Topic: PM summons  (Read 4077 times)
-firecracker-
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« on: 10 April 2011, 00:47 »

Would be really nice if the PM summons could not be dispelled...they get one per rest and it only takes one mords disjunction from some medium level caster on the summoner and poof its gone...the PM summons are a feat and not a spell, so kind of inline with the undispellable shadow evade, lightning speed, barb rages, epic spells etc etc...this list goes on...
« Last Edit: 10 April 2011, 01:02 by -firecracker- » Logged
NLawson
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« Reply #1 on: 10 April 2011, 02:05 »

I didn't know Mords could take them out - I thought it was just things like WoF (which is a bitch at the best of times) that dispelled them...they should definitely be undispellable, anyway, since they're pretty much the only reason to take PM past about 10.

In a related topic (in that it's another way for PM summons to disappear) can we do something about WoF? Blindness immunity is impossible (so far as I know) to come across, and WoF immunity is only on items that are mediocre by any other standards - at least from what I've heard...I've never seen a single item with WoF immunity. It also dispels any and all summons in the area of effect, and most cleric NPCs will fire off at least one each (meaning it's extremely unlikely that a PM will retain his summon past the first cleric-containing mob) - I know blindness scrolls are cheap and usable by anyone, but it doesn't even take a round for an unavoidable blindness to decimate a small team, if combined with powerful attacking NPCs, large mobs, or enclosed corridors and paths.
I suggest a will save to avoid the effects (two rolls for summons, one roll each for dismissal and blindness). Just a standard will save: 10+Spell Level (7)+ability modifier+spell focus modifier. Opinions?
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-firecracker-
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« Reply #2 on: 10 April 2011, 03:19 »

There are some WoF items out there including an uber large shield...

I have to disagree about WoF - WoF already got nerfed and remember it is a pretty high level spell (level 7). I see it as like the wizards no-save horrid wilting/ice storm - I think the current operation works pretty well - the blindness is short lasting and yeh scrolls are so easy to get hold of and use in combat. It's only other use is that is gets rid of summons (that are not immune to it) - if a save was introduced then a proper save needs introducing to horrid/ice storm IMO Smiley
« Last Edit: 10 April 2011, 03:30 by -firecracker- » Logged
NLawson
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« Reply #3 on: 10 April 2011, 04:25 »

Before I say anything, I did ask for opinions (it's nice to see what people think of ideas) and it was just a suggestion. You'd be surprised how many times I have suggested something that ended up either being modified so that it worked, or prompted somebody else to come up with a good idea. I'm not even close to being the only one who does that, either...it happens on a fairly regular basis.

Unless it's been changed since the last time I was online, horrids has a save - Fortitude for half damage. Plus, undead and constructs are naturally immune to it, a lot of people have shadow shield (meaning they need to be morded first, which takes time and spell uses that aren't always there), and it only really does about 120-140 damage even on a failed save (the damage dice mean it should do up to 200, but I have NEVER seen it hit even close to that). If I had one shot to do as much damage as possible, I'd pick IGMS, Ice Storm, or something like that, not Horrids. Even for attacking enemies behind a gate, cloud spells like Incendiary Cloud generally work better (if more slowly).

Wof can hit anybody who doesn't have a mantle up, automatically blinds them, dispels all summons in the area (I don't know any that are immune except perhaps the epic ones, but I haven't exactly tested it so feel free to correct me on that - I would assume most are not) and is party friendly. The only thing I KNOW is immune to WoF is construct shifter shape. I also don't know the stats on that shield - the only WoF immune item I know of is some helm that I think drops in Barad Dur (and generally isn't worth the small bonus) so that's new info to me.
In terms of causing blindness, the auras are worse, but they don't occur regularly enough for people to care about them. For some reason, a lot of people (talking about the world population here) think that if a problem doesn't occur fairly often or regularly - no matter how bad it is - it's not worth spending time trying to fix, even if the fix would be easy. I don't understand that way of thinking.

But then I don't understand the whole "make things so powerful/numerous/annoying that they're not worth the effort it takes to kill them" type of thinking that seemed to pervade this server for quite a long time (since well before I got here). Just because something is horrendously challenging doesn't make it fun, or worth doing. Tell me - how many people go out to kill Odorf and Oblib Baggins? How often does the temple of doom get completed? Hell, who was the last person to actually complete the rogue arena? I think it might have been Sancho, that last one. The challenge was interesting, but I don't think the arena is worth doing once you know how to do it.

This "hate the player" mentality is being fixed now, slowly but surely, so that's a good thing - there's no reason to needlessly overcomplicate things, like keeping the exp penalty (I realise that issue has been dropped, I bring it up as an example only).

That went on a bit longer than I intended...sorry about that. I'm tired. I try to trim things down, but I don't like simply ignoring thoughts that come to me.

TL;DR
A lot of recent good ideas come from modifications made to crappy ones. Even if the idea is stupid, it's worth suggesting just in case.
Sorry FC, but the Horrids comparison really doesn't work (if I understand both spells correctly). There are quite a few spells that fit the comparison better, and even they aren't that similar. You're telling me things I don't know (which is good) - anybody have a list of which summons are immune to WoF? I don't understand why people ignore some problems simply because they're rare - ALL problems should be fixed, just give priority to the most common and annoying ones. I also don't get the "Hate the player" mentality that I see in quite a few older additions to the mod...there's no reason to make things needlessly difficult.
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« Reply #4 on: 10 April 2011, 05:55 »

There is a reason I compare it to horrids but I am not going to go into it - The countless times one sided 10 second PvPs take place makes it speak for itself.

There isn't a problem with WoF - it's been how it's been since the beginning, all be-it nerfed now. It requires a bit of 'know how' to know what to do against it or if you are a summoner requires a bit of thought before bringing the summon out - but once you've worked out your tactics against it then it is fairly easy to play against.

Summons that are immune to WoF off the top of my head are:
- PM Ghost warrior
- PM Skeleton Monk (lots of spell resistance so tends to make the spell resistance save)
- One of the Blackguard summons (big boney thing)
- Dark Lord
- A couple of the lesser summons (don't recall them all but am pretty sure the ruby golum is one)
- The other higher level PM summons will throw up a mantle as they are spell casters - if they are getting WoF'ed all the time then IMO your doing something wrong (sure they will get WoF'ed occassionally). Also some have medium-high spell resistance so low level clerics with WoF will probalby not be able to dismiss them.

Also if you have TS - WoF won't blind (dragons, bosses, NPCs with blindsight etc)...so that covers quite a number of NPCs/PCs

Not including the uber shield I can think of 2 other items that have WoF immunity that are solo farmable (I think : )

I use to play a server that introduced a save for it and the spell became useless (thats why no-one really uses the blindness spells because the success rates are terrible). Clerics have had fewer perks than most of the other base classes - but they are still one of the hardest to play - I think WoF justifies this...
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Terrorble
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« Reply #5 on: 10 April 2011, 06:12 »

This should be fixed next reset:

WoF immunity added to dracolch and I think lesser demi-lich didn't have it.  Demi-lich is immune to all spells already.

I agree, PM summons are a feat more than they are a spell.  PM summons should be undispellable.  I'll have to go thru and check BG, SD, and whoever else later.


Save for WoF?  Yes, but are we willing to deal with that kind of nerf?
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NLawson
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« Reply #6 on: 10 April 2011, 14:19 »

I still don't see the comparison - horrids does good damage, but there are spells that outstrip it in every field except for "one blast magical damage". For the short, one-sided PvP I tend to prefer the other spells I mentioned over horrids...and I've died suddenly more times to some super-strong meleer with IKD (or some dragon, with 1k hp, TS, 9 apr and 65 ab) than I have to mages.

I'm not so fussed about how farmable they are - if I really want to get them I'm sure I can find somebody to help me - but how GOOD are they? There's no point in finding a helm with immunity to WoF if that's ALL you get...I'll just suffer through the damn spell if the item isn't at least comparible to other "decent" helms, like rager and half dragon.
And I'm not saying it's a major problem, it's not...it's just a really frustrating spell that I don't happen to like. I'm not that fond of anything that causes blindness (sunburst is a bitch if you fail the save, and the auras are just stupid) but something that causes blindness and can't be blocked, except by a few who can either cast spell mantle as a spell or from items, is something I don't think should exist.

Just like something that KDs without fail, and the only save is to dodge a ranged touch attack. That's bull as well.

If you think a save is likely to entirely ruin the spell, then don't introduce one. It's not worth crippling clerics over. I didn't know about the TS making you immune to the blindness effect either - maybe put that onto TS as an actual added effect instead of the save I proposed? Give immunity to WoF (or maybe just immunity to blindness) for the same duration as you get see invis from it...1 round per level, I think?

Again - just a suggestion, so feel free to shoot me down in no uncertain terms.
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-firecracker-
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« Reply #7 on: 22 April 2011, 01:10 »

All I will say is that if someone sees a spell as annoying that is no real justificiation to see it badly nerfed. Hell I see all the bibgy spells annoying especially when running a 90+ ac toon which supposedly should easily make the AC save vs a level 35 caster and crushing hand... but never does...but should I complain to see it nerfed? not really...

WoF is the one and only truly effective cleric spell until toons load themselves with immunity items...can the same be said for all the effective spells that mages have to offer? I think not...

P.S.. hi Lawson - just putting my final words in, after that its up to the DMs if WoF is overpowered (I think not! - as I have already said the current nerf makes WoF so easy to play against Smiley
« Last Edit: 22 April 2011, 01:15 by -firecracker- » Logged
NLawson
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« Reply #8 on: 22 April 2011, 05:37 »

As I said, it's just how I feel so feel free to shoot me down...I don't take personal offence when somebody thinks something like this is a bad idea. I wonder about the bigby spells myself sometimes...Forceful in particular - my strength based toons seem to fail it a lot more often than they should. It's already been nerfed though, and any lower and it'd be completely useless. I don't want that, no matter how much I may seem to when I get engrossed in the argument (when I'm an idiot).

I don't play clerics, so I have no idea what role they should fill and what spells are useful at given levels. If the concensus is that WoF is important to keeping clerics balanced, then it's definitely not worth changing just 'cause I happen to find it seriously annoying to fight. I still think the blindness auras are dumb as hell, and could (and probably should) be replaced with some other effect, but I doubt I'm going to see much support for that one either...it doesn't bother me. I think KD bolts are stupid as well, but I'm not about to go cut myself just 'cause nobody agrees with me  Roll Eyes

I'm trying to improve the game by throwing out suggestions. The whole point is to get the ideas out there and see if they're viable, so shooting down the stupid ones is important. If only 1/10 of my suggestions are useful, then only 1/10 will be implemented, and the more suggestions I make the more improvements I prompt. If I don't make ANY suggestions, then I'm never going to prompt any improvements and I may as well run around on a level 10 mage twink killing all the undeveloped lowbie toons before any of them have any sort of combat ability at all, since I clearly suck at life.

TL;DR Make suggestions people, even if you think they're dumb. You might prompt some fantastic idea from the coding geniuses on the other end. Go back to your work, minions.

EDIT: P.S. As I said on another thread, I'm not even playing at the moment 'cause I have exams... I still check the forums, because sometimes ideas just come to you when you read posts. Plus I like hearing about the improvements, even if I can't play them at the moment. It gives me that warm feeling in my chest. You know the one... barely restrained fury? Happiness? One of the two, I'm not sure. They're just so similar...
« Last Edit: 22 April 2011, 05:42 by NLawson » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: 22 April 2011, 20:49 »

Righto - good luck in those exams Smiley
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NLawson
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« Reply #10 on: 23 April 2011, 03:20 »

Thanks ^_^
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