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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Players Forum  |  Shifter Classes
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Author Topic: Shifter Classes  (Read 23231 times)
klixon
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« Reply #50 on: 23 July 2008, 09:00 »

Yes! with a cowbell that does sonic dmg and deafens everyone in area: huge lol
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ShinsFortress
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« Reply #51 on: 23 July 2008, 11:37 »

I understand Pink's point, and it's good, but think he goes a tad too far.  Apart from the cookie-cuts mentioned (Dragons & Risens), the class is poorly represented.  No-one is suggesting that Wyrmlings should be made into Dragon Immortals.

If the shape doesn't come by way of feat then it should be fairly weak and used mainly at preepic lvls to do preepic things.
Really?  Then what is the point in buying a boatload of Shifter levels?  As is, there is little benefit for most shapes to have a lot of Shifter levels.  We think there should be.  After all, as has already been admitted,
Shifter dragons suck...bad.
Shifter-Dragons are poor.  Why?  Eg. An unbuffed Shifter-Dragon should be better than a Cleric version.  But it isn't.

I'm not saying that a Minotaur should be turned into a killing machine that makes all other shapes irrelevent, but it could use help.  I like Shifters.   I'd like my shifter to be at least decent and my wife's shifter deserves to be even more competitive.  I'd like her shifter to be the uberest thing around!  *blink*  Oh, she's not here.

But seriously folks, no I can't expect Shifters and the other two classes I like to become world beaters, or the obvious would happen.  And this is after all, a game and server that professes to attempt balance.

There's plenty of points in Pink's post to discuss.  Here's one.
Rakshasas can get mid 70's ac and icestorms that do what, like 75ish per use? And immunity to all spells under 9th lvl, and true seeing.....I mean what else do they need?
How about not being able to be killed by a single shot from a certain weapon&ammo anyone can use?  Or the Ice Storm/Acid Breath DC etc to be based on Shifter+Druid level?  (My logic: They are spell-like abilities rather than traditional memorised spells, therefore intimate knowledge of the form -Shifter levels- should be just as useful as practical and theoretical knowledge of what they spells effects are -spell caster levels-.)  I don't expect them to be able to throw infinite Mordenkainens, but shouldn't someone with 20+ levels of Shifter get Greater Dispells?  Yes, Raks are not extremely poor, if at all.  But they could still use a least a tweak or two.

Edit:-
PS: I thought it was only the Drow Warrior that got a +6 blade.  Kobold and Lizard had +5 weapons.
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pinkpuff
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« Reply #52 on: 23 July 2008, 12:38 »

The point in getting a boatload of shifter levels is to get the Improved Forms. The kobold and drow warrior don't get the +6 weapons till shifter lvl 17.

A shifter dragon is weak because it has no buffs and poor preepic ab schedule. I don't see any reason for them to be better than an unbuffed cleric dragon, if you don't take the classes to make them better then why should they be.

Rakshasa being killed by a blessed bolt is stopped by immunity to death magic. and with 26-29 druid lvls the ice storms  pretty good.

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?forum=58&topic=397983
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ShinsFortress
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« Reply #53 on: 23 July 2008, 12:55 »

"I don't see any reason for them to be better than an unbuffed cleric dragon".  Sorry, I do.  If I'm a Shifter, I expect my Shifter Shapes to improve with more Shifter levels.

For example....  Fine, a basic drow/kobold/lizard should be not too strong.  But I think the Epic versions should be better than they are.  Like I said previously?  World beaters?  NO!  Better than they are?  YES!
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Terrorble
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« Reply #54 on: 23 July 2008, 19:32 »

Alright, I'm posting a couple of the shapes I've spent some time on and help the discussion progress.  I hesitate for a few reasons.  I haven't addressed everything I'd like to, the AC for shapes is still a *huge* something I need to work on.  Also, when I really look at it, it doesn't seem like much despite the amount of time I've put into it  Tongue

DIRE TIGER:
Increased base str from 27-->30
CON 15-->16
DEX 17-->20

Added skills to the creature hide that I feel are representative of a tiger:
+15 spot/listen/ms, +1d6 sneak, +3reflex

Added two abilities:
Expedious retreat - edited to have 5 + 1 round/shifterlvl.  I think cats should be fast.  Originally did shifterlvl/2 but then it's short to the point that it's annoying to use until much later.
Ferocity - +3STR/DEX.  Duration = CON modifier + shifterlvl/2  At lvl14 shifter it becomes +5 to stats and +2ab and at lvl20 become +7 to stats and +3ab (thinking of higher like 4 or 5).

Improved claws and bite:
Normal is 2d4/2d4/2d6 --> 2d8/2d8/4d6 put monster wounding4 and +6ab bonus on the bite. 

Notes:
Earliest level you can take Dire Tiger is lvl15.  If it's AC were about 10-15 higher (depending on monk levels) it would be competitive with other lvl15's.  I still think Keen sense is an appropriate feat for this shape but don't know for sure if that's doable.  Until then, be an elf.

AZER CHIEFTAN:
STR20-->28
CON21-->26

Skills/feats:
Divine 5/- + 25%divine immune, 100% fire immune, 50% cold vulnerability, +5 disc, +15 spot, 20SR

Azer Dwaraxe: +6enh, keen, 2d10fire, DC22blindness 50%/2rounds, cleave, KD, PA

Abilities:
Hellfire Inferno - is a firestream that always hits like the default fire stream ability.  Lasts 10-11rounds.  Does 2d10fire+1d10divine/round and *I think* gives a -4ab/dmg penalty.
Aura of Hellfire - 2d10 fire dmg aura, duration is casterlvl + shifterlevel/2, can't remember if there was a DC for the aura but it gives you a fire dmg shield as well.  Don't think you can dispel it but it's damage isn't that high and it's fixed.
Divine Power - just added this at base casting level of 7rounds.  It does take slightly from clerics but gosh, I just don't feel bad about it.  If you're a cleric it should incorporate your cleric levels into it's use.  You can say that's too uber but then again it's not much different than a lvl25cleric casting ext'd DP then shifting.

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Rodriquez
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« Reply #55 on: 23 July 2008, 21:58 »

The main issue is see with most shapes is survivability: dragon, risen, golem and to an extend the kobold commando with hips are shapes that are survivable. Survivable because of factors like DR/soak, high AC, massed hp's or HIPS.

In my opinion, the other shapes are lacking in the survivability area. Rak makes up with the ability to deal damage, but it's use is limited because it dies too easily.

I like the ideas Terrorble posted to start from, being a big fan of dire tiger! Would like info on their AC though.
Not sure about the Azer Chieftain. Dwarves are known for their ruggednes and ability to withstand physical hardship. I would like to see more of this on a Chieftain of the Azer Dwarves: heavy on the con and maybe some physical DR (% and/or fixed). Like the axe and the divine power (Chieftains should be something to be feared no just because of it's ability to take damage, but also to dish it out). Axe is good!
« Last Edit: 24 July 2008, 19:09 by Rodriquez » Logged
Wake of death
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« Reply #56 on: 23 July 2008, 23:27 »

Ok,

    i am not against the changes, but just wanted to know why they happened/happening. Didnt mean to offend anyone with the question. Thought that was what this place was for. Sorry!!!!
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Thanks
ShinsFortress
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« Reply #57 on: 24 July 2008, 09:20 »

It is the place for discussion.  If I mis-interpretted your comments as an attack, then I'm sorry.

Roll on the debate/discussion!
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« Reply #58 on: 25 July 2008, 16:39 »

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=397983&forum=58

Incase anyone isnt as clued up on shifters as some  Grin heres a rather good link.
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« Reply #59 on: 25 July 2008, 23:41 »

Thanks Terrorble for all the hard work you are putting into this. I'm sure the few shifters out there will appreciate it when you are done.
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