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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Players Forum  |  Suggested change: More focus on good and evil alignments.
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Author Topic: Suggested change: More focus on good and evil alignments.  (Read 8095 times)
nexus9000
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« on: 27 July 2008, 19:42 »

I think one interesting thing about this server is that almost everyone is neutral in alignment.  This makes anything related to good and evil alignments to be largely unimportant.  I would think that most on the side of Gondor would be good and most on the side of Morder would be evil. 

That's certainly not the case since everyone knows its a bad idea to be good or evil due to the disadvantages.  I'm not sure what the answer is to this (or if an answer is needed), but I think it would spice things up a bit to have more focus on good and evil alignments vs. everyone being neutral.
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Endlessorrow
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« Reply #1 on: 27 July 2008, 21:40 »

   There are a fair number of items that encourage good or evil toons making it or umd requred to use it....   i think that most of my toons are either good or evil certantly my host of blackguards are evil and i think all of my gonds are good and i have no paladins.

 I made a module area that could only be entered  by good aligned characters once this might be a neat perk on encouraging the alignment issue, but i think the key issue is playing alignment, I am relatively sure none of my evil Slaves of sauron would go out of their way to raise a weak fool who got them selves killed by some ridiculous spawn without the promises of payment and or service for my time.

 but this isnt a rp server and the rp end is light thankfully as when i have played rp I have suffered for my slow and mistake filled typing being unable to comunicate manulay as i would oraly drove me bqack to a action based Module.
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nexus9000
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« Reply #2 on: 27 July 2008, 22:30 »

I definitely agree this isn't a roleplay server, but that really wasn't the focus of this suggestion.  It was to give more variety to PvP (and, to some extend PvE).  I've never thought it reasonable that the vast majority of chars are neutral in alignment, but it seems like a difficult problem to solve.
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KrazyKuban
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« Reply #3 on: 28 July 2008, 00:05 »

I happen to think that the very nature of a LOTR world involves the powers of "good and evil" actually being far more neutral.  How many of the "goodly" peoples succumbed to the power of the Ring?  In the same instance, many of Sauron's forces are mercenary types, doing it for the promised wealth and power more than for "the forces of evil".

At least, that's my take on it.  I think the lines in a LOTR environment are a bit less defined than the typical "good" and "evil"
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« Reply #4 on: 28 July 2008, 00:18 »

Although this is a grand idea, I have to agree with KK. Forcing the toons out of neutral alignments would spawn TONS of paladin smiters. The advantage for Gondor would be too great.
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Rabbac
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« Reply #5 on: 28 July 2008, 15:16 »

True it would, but cant BG's smite good? that would even it up. I can see where nex is coming from, no-one goes good or evil unless they have to due to class choice, and i'm as guilty as anyone for that  wink
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« Reply #6 on: 28 July 2008, 18:33 »

Black guard is indeed an equivalent class of the paladin , let us say it is his evil counter part. But still the fact is that the extra pre requisites + the higher BG level neede for certain skills make paladin much better then the blackguard.

So logically people want to choose neutral chars, and I agree with KK's argumentation.
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nexus9000
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« Reply #7 on: 29 July 2008, 00:55 »


Yeah, this is one thing that's always bothered me about how D&D is implemented now.  Back in the day, you had paladins and anti-paladins.  The anti-paladins had exactly the same characteristics except vs good instead of evil.  Everything else was the same.  I really don't understand why they had to deviate from that since it seemed to work so well.

BTW, I'm not saying that everyone in Gondor should be good and everyone in Mordor should be evil.  But it might make things a bit more interesting if there was a way to cause more characters to be good or evil instead of mostly neutral.  The issues of paladins vs. BGs was somewhat dealt with already and there are certainly further ways around it.

Like I said when I started this thread, I'm not sure there is a good answer for this.  I just thought I'd bring it up as a point of discussion to see if there were any reasonable alternatives.


Black guard is indeed an equivalent class of the paladin , let us say it is his evil counter part. But still the fact is that the extra pre requisites + the higher BG level neede for certain skills make paladin much better then the blackguard.

So logically people want to choose neutral chars, and I agree with KK's argumentation.
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Rade
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« Reply #8 on: 29 July 2008, 00:59 »

I actually have a character who is not a blackguard, not an assassin, and is evil. I did this for 2 reasons:

1) He is a DR toon and so in fairness I gave him a weakness that would not interfere with my boss farming.
2) I get to use a shield, lookat that.

Personally I think alignment should be enforced to allow for smiting as a viable tactic (creates a few different types of builds and maybe some party-reliant boss killers). This would require some balancing out depending on public agreement: look at Bastions of War and how they capped Paladin great smiting lower than Blackguard great smiting. It would also require the removal of alignment restrictions on certain classes such as Palemaster and the all-powerful HarperScout and Assassin classes to allow for further equilibrium between Mordor/Gondor.
(An unexpected benefit would be that dragons could be restored to their former AC [likely keep the DR where it is at +6 soak 15] since you cannot have monk/druids without lawful neutral alignment)
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Endlessorrow
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« Reply #9 on: 29 July 2008, 02:24 »

I have checked..... I have 4 toons with bg lvls all evil of course, and 3 other evil mords,  and 4 neutral mords.............

I have 6 good  gonds and 1 neutral gondorian None of whom are paladins ... number of times ive ben smited altogether?...............0...........

 I have never sucessfully pvp smited with my bgs though one is a exulted sorc, and wouldn't,  and i have twice successfully smited with my rouge cot sd in pvp on the Gondor side.

  I think fears of playing good or evil toons are vastly over rated.
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nexus9000
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« Reply #10 on: 29 July 2008, 03:09 »

I have checked..... I have 4 toons with bg lvls all evil of course, and 3 other evil mords,  and 4 neutral mords.............

I have 6 good  gonds and 1 neutral gondorian None of whom are paladins ... number of times ive ben smited altogether?...............0...........

 I have never sucessfully pvp smited with my bgs though one is a exulted sorc, and wouldn't,  and i have twice successfully smited with my rouge cot sd in pvp on the Gondor side.

  I think fears of playing good or evil toons are vastly over rated.

It may be that most people don't even think to check on good vs. evil because so many people go neutral.  Besides that, there's no way to check except to actually try a smite and few want to take the time to develop a PvP capable smiter because it will hardly be used.

If more characters were good or evil, I think you've find more people using smiting and using defensive and offensive spells against good and evil.  Which is exactly the point of the original suggestion.
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ShinsFortress
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« Reply #11 on: 29 July 2008, 14:31 »

What Endless said....
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« Reply #12 on: 29 July 2008, 17:03 »

I think most of my characters are evil or good aligned.  I know it's not a rp server but I feel similarly about the idea.  I have been smitten, albeit lightly, a few times but do like it when players apply a at least a touch of rp to the mod.
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Rade
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« Reply #13 on: 30 July 2008, 01:24 »

Besides that, there's no way to check except to actually try a smite and few want to take the time to develop a PvP capable smiter because it will hardly be used.

Shall I post the "Detect Alignment" script I hijacked and edited from an RP server? Works for Paladins/BGs/clerics and I could just remove the time it takes to detect (there is a period where you have to "study" nearby people) and move it from a conversation to an item. Grin
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« Reply #14 on: 30 July 2008, 01:39 »

There would be a problem with the inequality of Smite Evil and Smite Good.

Paladin/CoT builds can get up to Great Smite 10 and 40 smite levels (usually 38 tho). The blackguards can only get 30 smite lvls and have CRAPPY ab on thei smites compared to paladins. Sure the bg's get a lil sneak damage but it doesn't compare to bless/aid/prayer/favor (+8ab at lvl 15 pally).

If the server was made so that you had to be good or evil depending upon your faction choice then the BG's would have to get a bump to make them more playable. But as was written before there would be the issue of classes/alignments. Can't thro the alignment req's out cuz then you would have evil paladins and bard/dragons, barb/dragons, pally/bard/pm, and a host of other builds that would be like....uh oh.
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« Reply #15 on: 30 July 2008, 01:55 »

BGs and assassins were supposed to have spellcasting abilities, which would make both a lot more attractive than they are right now.

Also, for pallys there is another way of detecting evil alignment: using Holy Sword.
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Rade
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« Reply #16 on: 30 July 2008, 03:57 »

There would be a problem with the inequality of Smite Evil and Smite Good.
Yes, absolutely.... if it was enforced then the feats should be capped (see Bastions of War for a good cap example). It's easy enough to do.
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Rade
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« Reply #17 on: 30 July 2008, 03:59 »

Well, I haven't tested this in a module, it is based off the Hardcore RP scripts and I just did it up tonight because I couldn't find the aforementioned edit. I'm guessing it will work, it compiles properly and follows logically, I also took a stab at some possible bugs.  Shocked
Code:
#include "NW_I0_GENERIC"

const string TEXT_DETECT_NO_ALIGN        = "You do not detect any trace of good nor evil.";

const string TEXT_DETECT_SENSE          = "You have detected ";

const string TEXT_DETECT_SOURCE         = "a source of alignment.";
const string TEXT_DETECT_SOURCES        = " sources of alignment.";

const string TEXT_DETECT_MOST_POTENT    = "The most potent source ";
const string TEXT_DETECT_IS_EVIL        = " is evil and ";
const string TEXT_DETECT_IS_GOOD        = " is good and ";


const string TEXT_DETECT_AURA_FAINT     = "has a FAINT aura.";
const string TEXT_DETECT_AURA_MODERATE  = "has a MODERATE aura.";
const string TEXT_DETECT_AURA_STRONG    = "has a STRONG aura.";
const string TEXT_DETECT_AURA_OVERWHELM = "has an OVERWHELMING aura.";


const string TEXT_DETECT_STUNNED        = "You are stunned by a nearby source!";
// BREAK ----------------------------------------------------------------------

//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  lotr_detectalign based off of: hc_pal_detevil
//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
/*
    OnActivateItem script.

    Enables the tool user to sense good/evil alignments in the surrounding area.

    Overwhelmed = strongest aura is overwhelming and of opposite alignment, aura's strenth is greater than the PCs by 15.

    Aura Strength = calcualted using the following table:

        Evil Power      Aura Strength
        ----------      -------------
         0-4             Faint
         5-9             Moderate
         10-14            Strong
         15+             Overwhelming


    Known Issues @ 3.02 applicable to modified script
    -------------------------------------------------
    - LoS condition cannot be implemented properly implemented however creatures
      in the effect area but out of LoS can either be included or excluded using
      the bUseLoS variable.
    - Penetration of solid barriers is not implemented.
    - Detecting lingering auras is not implemented.
    - Evil items and spells detection is not implemented.
    - If travelling with a great source of the same alignment, PC will not be
      stunned...Let's say that "it's not a bug, it's a feature" and great powers
      protect the PC.
    - There is no time associated with the modified script.
*/
//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
/*
    HCR 3.02 - 12 July 2004
    - rewritten by Rade 29 July 2008

    Credits:
    - Archaegeo
    - Wraithdrit
    - Velmar
*/
//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  CONSTANTS
//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

// controls the size of the detect shape. Default = 18.3m (60 feet)
const float DETECT_SHAPE_SIZE = 18.3;

// controls if Line of Sight (LOS) is used should when detecting sources. Default = TRUE.
const int DETECT_SHAPE_LOS          = TRUE;

// power level constants
const int DETECT_POWER_FAINT        = 0;
const int DETECT_POWER_MODERATE     = 4;
const int DETECT_POWER_STRONG       = 10;
const int DETECT_POWER_OVERWHELM    = 15;

// aura level constants
const int DETECT_AURA_FAINT        = 0;
const int DETECT_AURA_MODERATE     = 1;
const int DETECT_AURA_STRONG       = 2;
const int DETECT_AURA_OVERWHELM    = 3;
// variables names
const string VAR_DETECT_EVIL_LAST_USED    = "DETECTEVILTIME";
const string VAR_DETECT_EVIL_NUM_ROUNDS   = "DETECTEVILROUNDS";
const string VAR_DETECT_EVIL_OBJECT_POWER = "EVILPOWER";


//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  PROTOTYPES
//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


// Returns a location fDistance infront of oSource according to their facing.

//  - oSource:          any object
//  - fDistance:        distance to new location
location GetLocationInFront(object oSource, float fDistance);

// Returns a evil power rating for oSource. The evil power rating cannot exceed
// their hit dice or level and is normally a fraction there of.
//  * Returns:          evil power rating between 0 and 60
//  * OnError:          returns -1
int Detect_GetPower(object oSource, object oPC);

// Returns the stregth of the aura generated by an evil rating power.
//  - nEvilPower:       evil power rating between 0 and 60
//  * Returns:          HC_DETECT_EVIL_AURA_* constant
int Detect_GetAuraStrength(int nPower);

// Returns a description of the aura strength specified.
//  - nAuraStrength:    HC_DETECT_EVIL_AURA_* constant
//  * Returns:          HC_TEXT_DETECT_EVIL_AURA_* constant
string Detect_GetAuraStrengthString(int nAuraStrength, object oSource);

// Wrapper for the various steps required to Overwhelm oPC
// NOTE: this was done to enable DelayCommand to be used if desired
//  - oPC:              paladin character
void Detect_Overwhelmed(object oPC);


//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  FUNCTIONS
//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


location GetLocationInFront(object oSource, float fDistance)
{
    // get current co-ordinates and facing
    vector vSource = GetPosition(oSource);
    float fSource = GetFacing(oSource);

    // calculate new co-ordinates (some circle algebra/geometry: centre vSource,
    // radius fDistance, angle fSource)
    float fX = vSource.x + (fDistance * cos(fSource));
    float fY = vSource.y + (fDistance * sin(fSource));

    // return a new location
    return Location(GetArea(oSource), Vector(fX, fY, vSource.z), fSource);
}


int Detect_GetPower(object oSource, object oPC)
{
    //nMax is the maximum Power felt by oPC
    int nMax;
    // sanity check
    if(GetIsObjectValid(oSource) == FALSE)
    {
        // source is invalid: return an error
        return -1;
    }

    // Compares oSource and oPC divinity to get nMax
    int nS0 = GetCharacterLevel(oSource);
    int nS1 = GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_CLERIC, oSource);
    int nS2 = GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_PALADIN, oSource);
    int nS3 = GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_BLACKGUARD, oSource);

    int nP0 = GetCharacterLevel(oPC);
    int nP1 = GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_CLERIC, oPC);
    int nP2 = GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_PALADIN, oPC);
    int nP3 = GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_BLACKGUARD, oPC);

    nS0 = nS0 + nS1 + nS2 +nS3;
    nP0 = nP0 + nP1 + nP2 +nP3;

    if(nS0 > nP0)
    nMax = nS0 - nP0;

    if((nS0 = nP0) || (nS0 < nP0))
    nMax = 0;

    return nMax;
}


int Detect_GetAuraStrength(int nPower)
{
    int nRet;

    // compare power rating with power levels to determine aura stength
    if(nPower < DETECT_POWER_MODERATE)
    {
        nRet = DETECT_AURA_FAINT;
    }
    else if(nPower < DETECT_POWER_STRONG)
    {
        nRet = DETECT_AURA_MODERATE;
    }
    else if(nPower < DETECT_POWER_OVERWHELM)
    {
        nRet = DETECT_AURA_STRONG;
    }
    else
    {
        nRet = DETECT_AURA_OVERWHELM;
    }

    return nRet;
}


string Detect_GetAuraStrengthString(int nAuraStrength, object oSource)
{
    string sRet;
    switch(nAuraStrength)
      {
        // parse aura power to return appropriate "has a _____ aura" string for evil source
        case DETECT_AURA_FAINT:     sRet += TEXT_DETECT_AURA_FAINT;     break;
        case DETECT_AURA_MODERATE:  sRet += TEXT_DETECT_AURA_MODERATE;  break;
        case DETECT_AURA_STRONG:    sRet += TEXT_DETECT_AURA_STRONG;    break;
        case DETECT_AURA_OVERWHELM: sRet += TEXT_DETECT_AURA_OVERWHELM; break;
      }

    return sRet;
}


void Detect_Overwhelmed(object oPC)
{
    // inform player
    SendMessageToPC(oPC, TEXT_DETECT_STUNNED);

    // stun player
    effect eStun = EffectStunned();
    ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, eStun, oPC, 6.0);

    // reset the number of consecutive rounds to 0
    DeleteLocalInt(oPC, VAR_DETECT_EVIL_NUM_ROUNDS);
    return;
}

//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
//  MAIN
//  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

void main()
{
    object oPC = OBJECT_SELF;
    vector vPC = GetPosition(oPC);

    //  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    //  Detection and Feedback
    //  ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    int nNumAura;
    int nCurPower;
    int nMaxPower;
    object oGreatest;

    // create a location based on PC's position and facing
    location lTarget = GetLocationInFront(oPC, DETECT_SHAPE_SIZE);

    // object type filter
    int nObjectTypes = OBJECT_TYPE_CREATURE | OBJECT_TYPE_DOOR | OBJECT_TYPE_PLACEABLE;

    // loop through all targets in effect area
    object oTarget = GetFirstObjectInShape(SHAPE_CONE, DETECT_SHAPE_SIZE, lTarget, DETECT_SHAPE_LOS, nObjectTypes, vPC);
    while(GetIsObjectValid(oTarget))
    {
        int bThisIsEvil = FALSE;

        // check if the target is evil
        if(GetObjectType(oTarget) == OBJECT_TYPE_CREATURE
        && GetAlignmentGoodEvil(oTarget) == ALIGNMENT_EVIL)
        {
            // target is an evil creature
            bThisIsEvil = TRUE;
        }

        // target IS evil
        if(bThisIsEvil)
        {
            // always
            nNumAura++;

                // get the current evil power, if higher update max power and remember target as oGreatest
                nCurPower = Detect_GetPower(oTarget, oPC);
                if (nCurPower > nMaxPower)
                oGreatest = oTarget;
                nMaxPower = (nCurPower > nMaxPower) ? nCurPower : nMaxPower;

                // highlight current target
                effect eVis  = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_DUR_PARALYZED);
                ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, eVis, oTarget, 3.0);

                // inform PC about current target
                string sASS = Detect_GetAuraStrengthString( Detect_GetAuraStrength(nCurPower), oTarget);
                SendMessageToPC(oPC, GetName(oTarget) + TEXT_DETECT_IS_EVIL + sASS);
        }
        else
        {
            // always
            nNumAura++;

                // get the current evil power, if higher update max power and remember target as oGreatest
                nCurPower = Detect_GetPower(oTarget, oPC);
                if (nCurPower > nMaxPower)
                oGreatest = oTarget;
                nMaxPower = (nCurPower > nMaxPower) ? nCurPower : nMaxPower;

                // highlight current target
                effect eVis  = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_DUR_PARALYZED);
                ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, eVis, oTarget, 3.0);

                // inform PC about current target
                string sASS = Detect_GetAuraStrengthString( Detect_GetAuraStrength(nCurPower), oTarget);
                SendMessageToPC(oPC, GetName(oTarget) + TEXT_DETECT_IS_GOOD + sASS);
        }

        // get the next target in the effect area
        oTarget = GetNextObjectInShape(SHAPE_CONE, DETECT_SHAPE_SIZE, lTarget, DETECT_SHAPE_LOS, nObjectTypes, vPC);
    }


    //  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    //  Feedback
    //  ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    if(nNumAura > 0)
    {
            if(nNumAura == 1)
            {
                // inform PC of single source of evil
                SendMessageToPC(oPC, TEXT_DETECT_SENSE + TEXT_DETECT_SOURCE);
            }
            else
            {
                // inform PC of multiple sources of evil
                SendMessageToPC(oPC, TEXT_DETECT_SENSE + IntToString(nNumAura) + TEXT_DETECT_SOURCES);
            }

            // inform PC about strongest aura strength
            string sASS = Detect_GetAuraStrengthString( Detect_GetAuraStrength(nMaxPower), oTarget);
            SendMessageToPC(oPC, TEXT_DETECT_MOST_POTENT + sASS);

            // if greatest aura strength "is overwhelming" by character level and opposite alignment
            if((Detect_GetAuraStrength(nMaxPower) == DETECT_AURA_OVERWHELM) && (GetAlignmentGoodEvil(oGreatest) != GetAlignmentGoodEvil(oPC)))
            {
                // the PC is overwhelmed
                Detect_Overwhelmed(oPC);
            }
    }
    else
    {
        // no alignments
        SendMessageToPC(oPC, TEXT_DETECT_NO_ALIGN);
    }
}
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nexus9000
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« Reply #18 on: 30 July 2008, 14:18 »

Shall I post the "Detect Alignment" script I hijacked and edited from an RP server? Works for Paladins/BGs/clerics and I could just remove the time it takes to detect (there is a period where you have to "study" nearby people) and move it from a conversation to an item. Grin

Let me rephrase that - there's no CURRENT method of checking.  I remember that Detect Alignment was an integral part of being a paladin, but that seems to have gone by the wayside as well.
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nexus9000
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« Reply #19 on: 30 July 2008, 14:21 »

There would be a problem with the inequality of Smite Evil and Smite Good.

Paladin/CoT builds can get up to Great Smite 10 and 40 smite levels (usually 38 tho). The blackguards can only get 30 smite lvls and have CRAPPY ab on thei smites compared to paladins. Sure the bg's get a lil sneak damage but it doesn't compare to bless/aid/prayer/favor (+8ab at lvl 15 pally).

If the server was made so that you had to be good or evil depending upon your faction choice then the BG's would have to get a bump to make them more playable. But as was written before there would be the issue of classes/alignments. Can't thro the alignment req's out cuz then you would have evil paladins and bard/dragons, barb/dragons, pally/bard/pm, and a host of other builds that would be like....uh oh.

Agreed.  There is definitely a large discrepency between the two classes and that would have to be resolved. 

I'm still going back to KK's original comment though.  If this were to be done, wouldn't it just generate a whole lot of smiters (on both sides) and tip the balance too far the other way?
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pinkpuff
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« Reply #20 on: 30 July 2008, 16:35 »

The faction cities would also become quite an issue. Ever see a Peacekeeper get off a Smite crit?

I'm sure the Mordor Blackguards would be about the same. They only have mid 40's ab if I remember correctly so I am guessing they are loaded with smite feats.

IT would be entertaining for sure but i think the last thing the server needs is something to make it more pvp oriented.
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Endlessorrow
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« Reply #21 on: 30 July 2008, 20:08 »

Ive wanted to make a smiter for a while not for pvp but because i think it would be a great boss killer on some bosses  but a smiter made to maximizes smites will have squishy ab ac and hp when not smiting or in divine sheild and my style of playing  really is tough for such a build im not a patient tactition i like to wade in and go toe to toe lol.

  I may give it a shot anyway. i just like going in with 70- 90 ac and lots of dr  and not running from the spawns all the time cavetroll
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