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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Players Forum  |  Shifter tenser bug
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Author Topic: Shifter tenser bug  (Read 4714 times)
NLawson
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« on: 27 November 2013, 10:04 »

I'm just gonna say this flat out, for once.

Fix the shifter bug that allows them to abuse tensers. I don't care why it hasn't been done so far, I don't care how you do it, and I don't care how many toons it will ruin - fix it, and do it soon. I am sick to death of seeing every toon on the server being a goddamn shifter, much less a super OP dragon.

If you don't make it impossible to use that bug, I will. And you don't want to see MY solution, because it certainly doesn't fall under any definition of fair play.

Consider yourselves warned.
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Rodriquez
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« Reply #1 on: 27 November 2013, 13:35 »

I too would like to see that one fixed, but seriously...

...people are working hard to resurrect the server and you go about demanding things be fixed and fast, or else you will do something that nobody likes. How about you ask to get the code nicely and you fix the bug yourself instead of threatening to unleash your unfair doomsday reign of terror on GvM?
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Ace-of-Spades
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« Reply #2 on: 27 November 2013, 17:28 »

Well, the server has been resurrected as far as I can tell.

If we are going to act like we are continuing this server, not just playing in some temporary imitation, I think it is fair to start addressing issues and move forward with bug fixes and improvements. Did we all whine (and a few of us work pretty damn hard) to get the server back just to use it as an image of a module frozen in time? I'm not saying anyone should be demanding, but asking for an issue to be looked at and addressed seems reasonable to me.

Back on topic, this does seem like something that has been around for awhile and never been fixed. Maybe some people didn't want it fixed? I too have gotten annoyed over the years seeing the large amount of level 40 toons running around as uber shifter dragons. I've played GvM a lot off and on over the years, but I've never actually achieved level 40 with a toon. There was once a time when I actually thought the only way to get there was to make a shifter/dragon, because that's what everyone seemed to be doing.
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NLawson
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« Reply #3 on: 27 November 2013, 18:09 »

I too would like to see that one fixed, but seriously...

...people are working hard to resurrect the server and you go about demanding things be fixed and fast, or else you will do something that nobody likes. How about you ask to get the code nicely and you fix the bug yourself instead of threatening to unleash your unfair doomsday reign of terror on GvM?


I get that Fire and Grey are working hard to get the server up and running again, and I'm very grateful for that. I'd like to say it's great to be able to play again, with everyone.
I'd be lying if I said that, because I'm also well aware that the only thing 90% of the people on this server are now playing is some version of a super-broken bug abusing hitter tank combo which renders all other build types fairly useless.
The positive side is that I can think of at least two ways to fix it (the preferred one is fixing the actual bug, the other is just a straight up nerf to make either tensers, dragons, shifters, or any/all of the above unusable).

Why I don't fix it myself? I don't code. I wouldn't know the first thing about fixing it, and I'd just screw things up more. If I thought that was a viable option I would have done it by now.

Why am I demanding? Because what's the point in playing in a server where the only toons you ever see are so obscenely powerful that
1) they don't need or want your help or company for anything,
2) they're far too big and bulky to fight alongside even if they did want or need you there, and
3) there's nothing you can really do short of isolating yourself from the main party (because there is only one, these days, and that's a whole other issue) and playing by yourself.

And don't get me wrong, the threat is not aimed at anyone except the bug abusers. Either the bug is fixed (as I said, I don't care how, just make it so it is not viable anymore) or I will, uh...
unleash your unfair doomsday reign of terror on GvM?
Yeah, that. It won't be fair, it dances around the edge of legality like it's a burning building (but then bug abusing isn't legal either, so...), and I don't WANT to have to resort to it, but it will certainly be effective.

I get that people might not want it fixed, because it's OP and useful. They can just learn to deal with it.
I love to play sorcs, and they've been nerfed/buffed/tweaked more times than I can even count to try and make them balanced. Whenever they got something that might be a little too powerful, it was changed. And yet the dragon/tenser bug remains. I'm tired of it. Barbarians had 2d12 extra sonic damage on their thundering rage, and THAT was deemed too powerful for only 16 levels of barb, and nerfed... but dragons were left alone, for fear of hurting the feelings of those who had built a lot of them, and didn't want their time wasted.

Well it's a new server now. It's a new start, no one has massive time investments into anything they've built yet. The first order of business should be to get rid of the 70ab/90ac rapid attacking undispellable DR tanking lizards. Keep dragons still usable if you can (maybe give them a massive ab or ac penalty for being so damn huge, make them either a hitter shape or a tank shape, not both), but do SOMETHING.

tl;dr
What is the point in resurrecting the server if the only thing people are going to do is play OP shifter dragons by themselves?

With this bug in place, you are wasting your time.

There are other bugs, and they need fixed too - but this one, right here and now, is the biggest single abuse of one broken game mechanic that I've ever seen.

I'm not starting yet. I'll give you some time to try things first.
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Rodriquez
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« Reply #4 on: 27 November 2013, 21:19 »

"Yeah Aragon, the sword needs mending...but err...you might want to wear that pink G-string under your  pants when you lead the men of Gondor into battle?"

I do not need convincing that the server would be better off with this exploit resolved. Just pointing out that I found the way your wrapped your original message distracting from the actual content

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GreyDeth
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« Reply #5 on: 28 November 2013, 20:16 »

I totally agree with Rod here, its not the message its the tone  ... thnx for being still around here Rod btw.
Maybe I'm still too n00bish to actually understand what this topic is really about.
something about shifter dragon and tenser something? (tenser Transformation spell maybe?)
and abusing this heavily. (... didnt knew this could be abused till now)

I really think I understand the irritation of NLawson
... besides its hard to NOT see the frustration in NLawson's posts about this topic  Tongue
But plze be a bit realistic here and show some understanding and "relaxness"
Asking nicely wont hurt and surely will help getting focussed on the real problem (the bug abuse)

Furthermore:

1. I think this topic should be in here:
GvM1 Future Talk
Updates part I - bug fixes
http://www.gondorvsmordor.com/gvm2/forum/index.php?topic=3137.0

2. Dont you worry about this topic not getting attention ... I'm pretty sure this abusable bug is important enough to get the appropiate attention
Too bad I still am not capable and comfortable enough with aurora (nwn) scripting ... otherwise I had given it a try ... but maybe fire or Terror or somebody else could tackle this one soon.

In the meantime plze plze plze be kind, have patience and show a little respect
It will help in understanding each other and cooperation for us all
(I for sure almost got an hart attack reading the tone of the post, not want that to happen and surely not after my hart operation 5 months ago  wink )

we all want the same trust me in this ...
A great and playable server!

« Last Edit: 28 November 2013, 20:25 by GreyDeth » Logged

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NLawson
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« Reply #6 on: 29 November 2013, 12:06 »

On the one hand, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that to sound as harsh as it does, I was sleepy and angry, and more than a little hasty. I didn't even think about putting it in the right forum, either, so that's my fault.
To allay your worries a bit - I'm still putting off my threat, because I honestly can't be bothered right now (I really don't want to have to go that far just to get people to stop abusing an exploit).

On the other hand, in my experience (not just here, but in general) asking nicely gets you platitudes and promises, but no actual results. Complaining loudly and unreasonably, oddly enough, seems to solve them. If you offer a much worse deal than what you actually want, people are much more willing to give you your original goal as a compromise. Or they flip out, which is always funny.

Honestly, I expected this to be one of the first things that was fixed (along with a couple of the weirder bugs, like the sentries in XR not despawning at all and just endlessly congregating at the end of the bridge) if the server was actually brought back. From what I understood, the only reason this exploit hadn't already been fixed is that too many people would have lost their superpowered farming toons, coupled with the fact that everyone apparently got bored with them and stopped playing them - it was actually funny that people would keep coming up with clever builds (Shadow tanks, DR tanks, super-focussed high-DC spellcasters, extreme ab/damage hitters, PM tanks, you name it...) and they would keep being nerfed for the sake of game balance, and yet the dragons were left pretty much alone despite even a badly built dragon easily hitting 60 ab and 85 ac, with loads of attacks per round thanks to monk attack progression, and undispellable high-level buffs (including the concealment from Imp Invis). Probably their only (rather glaring) flaw is that they're terrible to play alongside - aiming around them is hard, they can't unshift to rez you (or they get smashed to mush pretty fast), and they can't use the drop widget.

The bug (I don't know exact specifics, but I've heard enough over my time on GvM to get an idea of what's happening) is that you can trick the game into letting you cast Tenser's Transformation after morphing into another shape (any shape, though it's only really game-breaking with dragons) who couldn't normally cast that spell, thereby bypassing the spell failure aspect of tensers (which would not normally allow a shapechange after using it) and adding the superb tenser bonuses (with the massive druid+shifter caster levels) to your already undispellable shifter buffs and the supremely OP dragon combat bonuses.
An example of those OP bonuses would be their dragon breath: it has unlimited use, a much higher DC than most "normal" spellcasters can reach (mid 50s I believe? Even the most specialised non-shifters could only hit about 50 with their DCs), it can't be interrupted, and it has damage comparable to some of the best spells going (routinely hits triple digits and has a decent AoE), with variable elements (different type of dragon) to suit the weakness of the boss you're facing. That ALONE would make them viable - kit your tank up in a way that the breath won't hurt them too much (massive DR/immunities/saves) and just unload.

It's probably not actually that hard to fix, if you know how to code - as I said, you can work around it by crippling either the ab or ac of dragons, so they can't SOLO anything (because no one would bother using the exploit if it didn't provide some massive advantage over other builds), or remove tensers from the shifter spell list (that would make a lot of the other shapes unusable too, and really the only issue is that dragons in particular are superpowered even without it, but it IS a bug), or leave everything as it is and fix it so shifters can't delay the spell until after the shift (if that's even possible).
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Terrorble
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« Reply #7 on: 30 November 2013, 04:10 »

Don't worry Lawson, I know you post because you care.  I mean that.

You read too much into the reasons why things aren't fixed.  It isn't conspiracy.

Once I transfered to mostly working on mod projects, I became out of touch with the players and the latest "methods".  I was also increasingly viewed as someone to hide exploits from, rather than have them showed to.  Three examples: the way players can get thru doors without opening them, using the tailoring models to gain massive damage bonuses to shifter forms, and using shifters and server crashes to clone entire inventories.   I had to spy using an alternate account and remove messages regarding my admin/deputy status to find out.  Sort of annoying for someone who doesn't use an exploit just because it can be.

I was never aware of this bug.  I have some interest in addressing this because it will probably present itself in my current project.  Anyone care to explain it in detail in a PM? (make sure firecracker is cut in)

P.S.  The breath weapon could easily be limited to 1 user per day, then have it re-usable every 1-2 turns.
« Last Edit: 30 November 2013, 04:20 by Terrorble » Logged
-firecracker-
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« Reply #8 on: 30 November 2013, 10:57 »

I know this bug, as already said it has been abused for quite a while. Original only 1 or 2 people knew of it but then the knowledge got passed around and we are where we are I guess.

It has not been something I have looked at since obtaining the mod. In fact I have not yet looked at any shifter related issues/bugs except ones related to the 2da overrides the mod uses as we had to rebuild these (these are separate files, not part the mod itself). And so far I have concerntrated on fixing broken stuff (like spawns/de-spawning/boss XP bonuses/monk set) rather than this sort of bug.

I have an idea of how it could be fixed but it at this stage it is just an idea - I will need to see if it is a possible solution.

At this stage I don't want to just remove tensers from the drow shape until it is fixed as no doubt there are purpose drow builds already started. However I would ask that players that now we are it this point, please refrain from using this bug.

« Last Edit: 30 November 2013, 11:06 by -firecracker- » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: 30 November 2013, 14:20 »

OK been in the toolset this morning and it looks like I may have a working fix.

I have modified the tensers spell script so that it explicitly checks what shape it has been cast by (if polymorphed). If it is not one of the drow shapes then the script prematurely ends and you get none of the bonuses.

I need to do some more testing to make sure I haven't broken anything like when it is cast from mages and from scrolls.
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GreyDeth
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« Reply #10 on: 30 November 2013, 15:34 »

 hello2 Worship

fire and Terror ... you 2 r great!
We r lucky to have you
Lawson ... see, terror is right here, you care ... but as you can notice we all care!

buggies / and other exploits be aware youre next  ... cause ... fire and Terror will hunt you down and will get you!!  Evil police Grin
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NLawson
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« Reply #11 on: 01 December 2013, 10:53 »

Three examples: the way players can get thru doors without opening them
[All I know about that one is it's called "ghosting" and it gets you through doors. I have no idea how it's done. As far as I know it's been around forever, and there was just no fix for it, so it's one of the bugs which is just banned by that rule in the journal

using the tailoring models to gain massive damage bonuses to shifter forms [That's a thing? Seriously? I knew they were used for item duplication at one point (which is why they were removed for a while)....but damage bonuses?]

and using shifters and server crashes to clone entire inventories. [I can't decide whether that explains a lot, or whether it raises a million more questions...]

Thanks for the...everything, guys - I've apparently been on a hair-trigger recently, but I didn't notice it myself till re-reading this post and the responses.

Anyway...apologies for the overreaction. I tend to forget that just because I've been around a long time, and have learned a lot about the mod, doesn't mean everyone else who's been around longer knows the same things. Another thing to check, Fire, is that it responds properly to uses from items (sequencers, that serpent belt that casts it) as well as scrolls - thankfully that won't interfere with the polymorph checkign script, because you don't get tenser potions.

My temper gets me in trouble IRL as well - I had a blazing argument with a coworker about counting rolls of labels (we have to keep track of how many we use every day) - I was counting what was there, and he insisted on counting the missing rows and subtracting from the number in a full box - he just never learned not to make needless assumptions, apparently. It was when I realised I was about 10 seconds away from punching a guy in the face because 7x24 is 168 that I just walked away - that'd be horrible to try to explain to people:
"So yeah, I got fired from my last job because, uhh...maths."
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GreyDeth
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« Reply #12 on: 01 December 2013, 11:37 »

 Grin
Thnx for youre personal reaction on this Lawson, it explains a lot and bringing us all (at least me) at ease in the way how you were looking at things.

Also great to read that we (as in "the members of this forum") can also help in seeing, understanding and learning things from another ones point of view  Cool


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« Reply #13 on: 04 July 2016, 15:49 »

Don't worry Lawson, I know you post because you care.  I mean that.

You read too much into the reasons why things aren't fixed.  It isn't conspiracy.

Once I transfered to mostly working on mod projects, I became out of touch with the players and the latest "methods".  I was also increasingly viewed as someone to hide exploits from, rather than have them showed to.  Three examples: the way players can get thru doors without opening them, using the tailoring models to gain massive damage bonuses to shifter forms, and using shifters and server crashes to clone entire inventories.   I had to spy using an alternate account and remove messages regarding my admin/deputy status to find out.  Sort of annoying for someone who doesn't use an exploit just because it can be.

I was never aware of this bug.  I have some interest in addressing this because it will probably present itself in my current project.  Anyone care to explain it in detail in a PM? (make sure firecracker is cut in)

P.S.  The breath weapon could easily be limited to 1 user per day, then have it re-usable every 1-2 turns.

Yeah I never did bother to figure out any of the tailor bugs. From what I heard that was just overkill to the point of not seeming fun. The door thing has been around forever. I also don't know who figured out the crash/dupe thing. Brilliant find though.

Hopefully you didn't take any of that personally Terrorble. I always had immense amounts of respect for you and I'm sure everyone else (in my group of people anyways) did too. But you were around just as long as we were and you were there for those early years where the Devs did everything in their power to keep people from having much or accomplishing anything. Even in the mid years every time I or someone else found a way to reliably beat something Ollebroc would be right there ready to rescript and edit NPC's. Looking back you were probably what stopped that trend but the players were already scarred at that point.

Your Shifter changes made the game fun again, opened new angles. And it was fun while it lasted, until this incredibly awful thread.

I honestly feel like I should whine about not being able to do what others do and then threaten someone to change it so they can get knocked down to my level instead of me rising to theirs. Just seems like the modern thing to do.
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