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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Character Builds  |  Epic Resistances
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Ace-of-Spades
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« on: 05 January 2014, 05:30 »

I'm tossing around some ideas for a tank build. I've realized that most builds (tank, hitter, etc.) need to be extremely focused to be of any use. With that in mind I am thinking of a build that sacrifices Strength and most other attributes and completely focuses on Constitution. It wouldn't be able to hit a damn thing, but hopefully it would have a ton of hit points, Epic Damage Reduction III and as many Epic Energy Resistance Feats as I can squeeze in.

Here is my inspiration for this build:
http://home.comcast.net/~worldofgreyhawk/builds/data/build202966.html#page1
Cinnabar Din's Master of Resistance.

While taking this concept, I was however thinking different classes for my GvM version. Right now I am thinking something like a Wiz8 or Sorc8/DwD22/PM10 or RDD 10. I am favoring RDD just because of the ability bonuses that will aid in getting Con. higher for EDR feats.

Here is my concern: are the EDR and Epic Energy Resistance feats viable in GvM? I recently had my first encounter with Baragor and let's just say I was stunned by his +70 AB. (How do you tank that?!) EDR III gives DR 9/-, but will this just get shredded by high level mobs and bosses on GvM?  I was hoping to get some insight on this, and on this build idea as a whole from some of our skilled builders (I'm looking at you Sestidoc).

Thanks for reading.
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Thiagow2008
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« Reply #1 on: 05 January 2014, 10:24 »

PM/DD used to be the main tanks before SD tanks were around. But unfortunatly, old DM's thought PM/DD were too OP and added an unresistble DMG against PMs. And this dmg is around 50s to 70s. Wich makes tanking very difficult. Even having 37 DR to all physical plus 15 to all elemental dmg.

If you are planning to make a pure DR build, then the shifter/DD, going construct shape (Iron Golem wich gets, I think 25% imm to piercing and 10% imm to slash/blunt) is probably the best option. I think you can get 35 DR to physical ater the immunities. Construct shape is also critical immune, and iron golem has a long lasting mass haste wich is nice to party.
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NLawson
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« Reply #2 on: 05 January 2014, 10:44 »

(I'm looking at you Sestidoc).

Made me laugh, anyway - if there's anyone I'd query before making a build, this is the man to do it.

So yeah, tanks...you have the right idea. They don't need to hit anything, because their job is to stand there and take the beating. EDR I'm not sure about (though if building a tank I would probably say any DR is good DR), but EER is definitely viable in GvM. When you combine a few EER feats with the great DR you can find on items, you can make yourself almost untouchable by anything except non-feat damage types. That said...divine, magic and positive damage are all pretty common on the really high level bosses, so a large part of being a tank also means getting the gear to do those as well.

The advantage is - if you're willing to play tank (and you have one that can do the job) you're pretty much guaranteed to be taken along. As long as you actually learn how to tank (and don't ask me because I'm a terrible tank).

I haven't seen many DDs around, but that might just be because no one has taken advantage of some of the great boosts they have - I honestly can't say. RDD is nice, because you get that extra con boost, but PM is usually better for a tank. RDD does however get fire/sleep/paralysis immunity and a few bonus AC.
At one point there was a script that ran which gave loads of bosses a lot of bonus damage versus PMs. I don't believe it still exists (because it was stupid, unfair, and annoying, and everyone hated it...), but that's just a heads up in case you do try a PM build and get absolutely torn down. No one has built a PM tank to test it, because that would just be suicide (that change singlehandedly made PMs one of the worst tanking classes...and what else are they supposed to do, exactly?).
As it stands now, I think they only get the 10% (that the right value?) bludgeoning vulnerability and 25% divine vulnerability when they hit level 10, to help balance the immunity to critical hits (which cannot be overestimated in its usefulness).

Baragor is a really difficult example. He's not the hardest boss to tank because of his ab (70 ab is actually below average for bosses - most of the really "important" ones have 80+) but because he gets like 10 attacks per round and usually does 80-120+ per hit without resistances. Most of the ways of fighting him consist of either getting a toon with super resistances (usually a shifter, because so many shapes have awesome DR benefits) and a reliable way of healing, getting a toon with high enough ac and concealment that he just can't hit you at all, or just zerging him and dropping him before he has time to kill you. You can chip away at his health but it takes forever.

Good on you for making this post though. Hopefully some of the better tank builders will be more use than I am.
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« Reply #3 on: 05 January 2014, 12:10 »

When I made my Dracolich summoner toon (which doubled up nicely as an dex based AC tank) I took a number of EER feats just because of the amount of bonus feats available. For that build they are very useful as it means it can eliminate certain types of elemental damage from weapons if hit, e.g. taking EER Sonic II pretty much eliminates any sonic damage from Thundering Rage either from NPCs or PCs. I would say it is definitely worth it for tanks if you have spare feats.

FYI the extra damage vs PM is still in the mod, but a couple of years ago some stuff got changed so it is not as extreme as it use to be and only a handful of bosses have it.
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NLawson
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« Reply #4 on: 05 January 2014, 12:19 »

FYI the extra damage vs PM is still in the mod, but a couple of years ago some stuff got changed so it is not as extreme as it use to be and only a handful of bosses have it.

Well...that's more reasonable, I suppose. I do remember watching it absolutely tear through our best tanks when it was first introduced - two or three rounds and they were completely out of it. As long as it's only low damage, and only in a small number of places, any build you make will still be viable even if it can't go there specifically.
I never did understand why NPCs would need extra damage vs PM, when they already get so many other things they need to take them down (how many bosses have extra damage bludge, or use bludge weapons, or have magic/divine/pos damage, for example?) They really don't need the help...though Baragor was the worst offender. Double-digit APR, super strength, extra magic damage (like 2d10 or something too) to hit through DR, and his bull lord champions have extra damage bludge and positive damage on their axes too...

It's no wonder only shadow tanks and shifters could take him on =S
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« Reply #5 on: 05 January 2014, 20:05 »

Tonoplast and I did manage to take down Baragor last night with a two-dragon combo. It did take us a few tries though, and we had to employ some pulling and bottle necking strategies. Tono informed me as well that the +70 AB on Baragor is pretty low compared to quite a few other bosses. I personally find that a little insane, but meh.

I do remember when there were a lot of DD-PM tanks running around, I was wondering why I wasn't seeing them anymore. Funny that Thiagow brought up the Shifter/DD combination as that was another build I've been looking at building. I was thinking more Druid/DD/Monk, DS only, but the Construct idea is interesting.

After playing my first dragon shape builds though I have finally found what people mean about them being absurdly large and annoying to use. For that reason I would love to build a Dwarven tank of some sort, I just wasn't sure it would stack up well. Referencing the "Master of Resistance" build above, Cinn used RDD which I like for a few reasons, as you pointed out NLawson. However, I think RDD tries to make the build too much a hitter AND a tank. In GvM I've learned that it is hard (if not impossible) to have both. I would rather sacrifice hitting all together if it makes for a much better dedicated tank build.

Looks like I may need to play around in excel with a few tank build ideas with EDR and EER and test them out. Thanks for the input so far guys.
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« Reply #6 on: 05 January 2014, 20:44 »

Druid5/shifter13/DD22 was the first tank I ever made, ~5 years ago. It could tank pretty much everything in the mod without a problem. The only things I remember it requiring some assistance on were Ghost of Smaug and Balrog. And even then, we farmed Ghost of Smaug for awhile with that, a dedicated healer, and an archer (with Nobutadas and Loc'mer).

They ended up lowering the phys immunities some, and lots of places had clerics who then started spamming turn undead for 100+ damage, so the next tank build was wiz4/pm10/dd26. This too faired extreme well pretty much everywhere, and became the next tank spec. This however ended up getting nerfed in that some boss damage got buffed+the anti-pm script was added everywhere, so pretty much any boss who attacked a pm did 100 extra damage per hit, which destroyed that build (although that was later "fixed" or removed from most bosses or whatever).

The next go-to tank build was the bard5/pm10/sd25, with it's 100+ ac and 85% conceal, could tank everything in the mod. All the toughest bosses (Balrog, Ghost of Smaug, Oblib,  etc) and all the toughest areas (BD, TOD, Hobbiton, Rivendell, MT, etc) weren't a problem. In case you haven't sensed a pattern yet, this build got slightly nerfed as well, lowering the Shadow evade bonuses and whatnot.

I'm sure they are all still fine builds and whatnot, although I never ended up remaking any of them after the server wipe. Was too annoying not having some of the gear needed to make them work, plus, if you have a tank, it pretty much means that's all you'll ever get to play. I did end up making a hybrid ac/dr tank, a Fighter 2/Bard 16/PM 22. No one wants to play a bard, so it gets enough bard levels for the 16 bard song+curse, 102 ac with just song+haste, 10/- slash/pierce/bludge from items + 9/- slash/pierce/bludge from edr feats, lots of energy resistance feats, great saves (although no evasion :/), 900+ health, and can use all the great fighter only gear (faramir's armor, henneth helms, etc).
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sestitodc
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« Reply #7 on: 05 January 2014, 20:55 »

I was thinking more Druid/DD/Monk, DS only, but the Construct idea is interesting.

After playing my first dragon shape builds though I have finally found what people mean about them being absurdly large and annoying to use. For that reason I would love to build a Dwarven tank of some sort, I just wasn't sure it would stack up well.

Druid20/DD18/Monk 2 has been a somewhat popular build. Off the top of my head, I remember Loc'mer, Noruas, and endless sorrow all playing it  (and I'm certain there have been others). And although the dragon shape is quite annoying size-wise, the air elemental shape actually gets a higher ac. It does lose out though on a lot of the dragon opness, TS, high ab/damage, +6/20 dr, all that str/discipline/anti-kd dragon sexiness, etc. However, air elemental with weapon finesse can still get a decentish ab, and +6/20 dr from dragon doesn't stack with DD/edr feats anyway (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_reduction in case you wanted to read up on it).
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« Reply #8 on: 05 January 2014, 21:09 »

I would always say that if you are going to build a tank, then build it as a dedicated tank. If you start trying to combine a tank with something that is also a hitter you will probably find that it will struggle against the tougher bosses. In my mind, unless it is a tank for something very specific, RDD is more of an offensive class as it gets mixed with cleric/ranger/bard/paladin for some very effective hitter builds.

The bosses that have a higher AB of 70 are built with the premise that they require a dedicated tank and party play in order to take them down. So for example taking dedicated AC tanks - I would always go for something that can get over 100AC. The highest AC I have heard which was achieved by a player was 116 - this is why some bosses will have an AB a lot higher than Baragor.

Shadow Dancer tanks are a little different as they rely on not being hit from their conceal bonus, but again SD tanks will look to get an AC similar to that of a AC tank which is why they probably make the most effective tanks for most bosses - conceal bonus backed up with a very high AC.

It is possible for some shifter builds/shapes to also get an AC of 100 but (unless it is a PM dragon or maybe Air elemental) they tend not to do so well against the bosses that require SD/AC tanks due to them not having enough AC, not being critical hit immune or not being able to remove certain effects easily (like blindness).

Edit...Sest posted at the same time to some duplicate stuff here ;)
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GreyDeth
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« Reply #9 on: 05 January 2014, 21:22 »

I'm not a skilled builder at all, but this topic triggered me to react  Tongue
A while ago I really wanted to make an epic damage reduction toon.
After lots of failures I ended up with a Construct tank toon  Grin
Its a Druid 5/Shifter 13 /Dwarven Defender 22 and am using mainly the iron golem shape
(can post this build if you want, if its not already there)

I still use this toon quite a lot and find it very enjoyable to play with, as it is doin its "EDR tank job" quite well.
Ive made it also quite "regeneratable" (DD regen + items now give me +21 regen. already ... still looking for better items though Smiley ) and that saves me quite some time returning to the fight after a small break or makes me confronting sudden new spawns faster.
It also makes my job to "hold the line" somewhat easier.

However my thought was that all this damage reduction would make this toon one of the better tanks, but unfortunately I was proved wrong.
It appears that I need loads of healing potions with (IMO too many) heavy encounters most of the time.
And I almost cannot play without a real hitter (hitting with this toon quite sckz!)
The more heavy Bosses I really cannot get without the aid of some quick and heavy hitters and almost every time I cannot hold it for long.
As a reference: Beorn and this toon together with my AA-"hitter" took me almost 15 minutes and I had to run in the end because almost all my 90 healing potions where used and Beorn still was only "injured". Running around with it in the same Mirkwood-area however is just as easy as pie. (cos my construct has sonic EDR too)

My experience with a dragon-tank is much better ...
not only this kind of build can make tanking last longer, but a dragon-tank can also hit most of the time too.

So IMHO if you really need a huge and great tank ... dont build an epic damage reduction one.
But if you want to experiment with this kind of fun build ... just try it! ... as said earlier, I have one EDR-toon for myself and still play and enjoy running around with it a lot!  Grin
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« Reply #10 on: 05 January 2014, 21:59 »

Druid20/DD18/Monk 2 has been a somewhat popular build. Off the top of my head, I remember Loc'mer, Noruas, and endless sorrow all playing it  (and I'm certain there have been others). And although the dragon shape is quite annoying size-wise, the air elemental shape actually gets a higher ac. It does lose out though on a lot of the dragon opness, TS, high ab/damage, +6/20 dr, all that str/discipline/anti-kd dragon sexiness, etc. However, air elemental with weapon finesse can still get a decentish ab, and +6/20 dr from dragon doesn't stack with DD/edr feats anyway (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_reduction in case you wanted to read up on it).

Thank you for pointing out that the DR does not stack. That probably saved me some time and frustration. I also didn't know about the Air Elemental. If EDR doesn't stack with Dragon Shape DR, I would assume it does not stack with Construct Shape either...or any shape? Am I wrong?

I don't have much experience with SD toons, nor have I built an SD tank, so I wouldn't know how they work. After reading about the Tank builds that have been successful I am starting to get a little more discouraged about the idea of a EDR/EER tank build being viable.
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« Reply #11 on: 05 January 2014, 22:30 »

Thank you for pointing out that the DR does not stack. That probably saved me some time and frustration. I also didn't know about the Air Elemental. If EDR doesn't stack with Dragon Shape DR, I would assume it does not stack with Construct Shape either...or any shape? Am I wrong?

I don't have much experience with SD toons, nor have I built an SD tank, so I wouldn't know how they work. After reading about the Tank builds that have been successful I am starting to get a little more discouraged about the idea of a EDR/EER tank build being viable.

DR is all a very complicated mess, sort of :p There's Damage Immunity, Damage Resistance, and Damage Reduction. Damage Immunity, given as a percentage, stacks with everything else (and is applied before everything else). Damage Resistance, like that on gear (ie, 10/- slash/bludge/pierce etc, NOT +5/10 or whatever), stacks with Immunity and Reduction.

Damage Reduction doesn't stack (with one exception). Damage Reduction would be like the +6/20 (and these could be any numbers, +4/9, +12/20, etc) found on gear or from certain shifter shapes, and this doesn't stack with other forms of Damage Reduction. Damage Reduction can also come from certain classes like DD/Barb and from epic damage reduction feats. The class DR+feat DR stack with each other, but don't stack with other Damage Reduction (like soak DR from gear or from shifter shapes).

For example, if you were a druid5/shifter13/dd22 (15/-) with epic damage reduction 1-3 feats (9/-) in Iron Golem form 25% pierce immunity, and an archer hit you with an attack normally doing 40 damage, it would hit you for (40 - 10 (from 25% pierce immunity) - 15 (from DD22) - 9 (fom edr3)) a total of 6 damage.

If anything wasn't clear, feel free to ask for clarifications :p On the topic of DR though, I'd also like to mention that the Resist energy/epic energy resistance feats do stack with your highest energy resistance from gear. So if you had 1 epic energy resistance fire feat, a 10/- fire cloak, and a 5/- fire ring, you'd get 20/- fire (10 from your epic energy resistance feat and 10 from the cloak).
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« Reply #12 on: 05 January 2014, 22:56 »

Clear as mud! Kidding, but seriously...I did know that only Class and Feat DR were stackable, however I was not sure how DR worked for shape shifting. Thanks for the explanation, Sest.

The stacking of EER and gear energy resistance is interesting. I was unaware how that worked. Good to know.

Your mention of Fire resistance reminded me why I was considering the RDD class before. As stated above, RDD is typically used as a synergy class in hitter builds, however the Fire immunity makes it appealing from a tank perspective (as well as extra CON and other immunities). With 10 levels of RDD you only have 4 other Epic Energy Resistance feats to shoot for, which seems easier to attain. A short while ago I mocked up a Bard10/RDD10/PM20 build which gets a Con of 30 (700 and some HPs), Improved Expertise, EDR III, and Epic Energy Resistance: Acid II, Sonic II, Electrical I, Cold I.

I went Bard 10 to get the ability to caste Imp. Invis. however, rethinking it, with UMD you can probably caste that from Ghost Sash so I dialed it down to 8 Bard (a decent stopping point for Bard Song too) and 22 PM netting me an extra epic feat, for which I threw in Epic Mage Armor. Thinking more about the UMD though, I could probably dial Bard down even further and just use item buffs/scrolls.
That being said, I have only drew this up on Excel CBC (character build calculator, HIGHLY recommended) and have not tested it in the GvM tester yet. I have a feeling, like most of my builds, it will come up pretty lackluster at 40.

Next I plan to look at some DD based tank builds in Excel CBC.
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« Reply #13 on: 06 January 2014, 02:29 »

... and Epic Energy Resistance: Acid II, Sonic II, Electrical I, Cold I.

Just weighing in on the hypothetical choices: you could probably drop the acid DR, take more elec and cold DR, and wear an Oiled Cloak from Stingers (20/- acid and immunity to 4 acid spells - EVERY melee hitter should have one too) to counterbalance. It depends on what cloak you had plans for, if any.

That's the thing about DR tanks - you have to tailor them very closely to the gear you plan to wear to make sure you maximise your DR against the rarer-item elements (cold and elec DR especially can be hard to find on anything decent, whereas fire is easier to find and that cloak is nearly essential to take down some NPCs).

You mentioned EMA - I just want to make sure you're aware of the changes made to it:
If you cast EMA, it takes your highest bonus in three types of AC (Natural, Deflection, and Armour), adds 1 to it, and applies that for two minutes per caster level. It also still gives you the 5 Dodge AC that it always did.
This means if you have +6 armour, +7 amulet, and +6 ring...you can cast EMA (gaining 8AC assuming you aren't dodge-capped), remove or swap your armour, ring, and amulet (if you have better items with lower AC bonuses), and not lose any ac because the spell has applied the higher values. In that case (my mages both get this result), you would have 8 Natural AC, 7 Armour AC, and 7 Deflection AC.

It doesn't apply to AC granted from other spells however - so high level clerics with Shield of Faith and Barkskin can give you 8 natural or deflection ac, but you can't boost that any further with EMA.
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« Reply #14 on: 06 January 2014, 02:52 »

Just weighing in on the hypothetical choices: you could probably drop the acid DR, take more elec and cold DR, and wear an Oiled Cloak from Stingers (20/- acid and immunity to 4 acid spells - EVERY melee hitter should have one too) to counterbalance. It depends on what cloak you had plans for, if any.

Thank you for that! This is EXACTLY why I wanted to start a discussion on this topic. I am pretty unfamiliar with a lot of the gear and most common elemental damage types found on the server. I had actually planned to wear a Charisma cloak for my Bard spells, however if I lower Bard levels (and Cha) and just rely on UMD, that wont be necessary anyway. The Oiled Cloak is a great idea, can't believe I didn't think of that. I also have a Cloak of the Fire Bath (can't recall what the resistance is on it though).
While I'm on the Bard spell bit: one thing I found annoying about that Bard/RDD/PM build was that I went with Dwarf for the Con boost, helping in the EDR and HP department, however to start as a Bard there is a minimum Cha requirement and with the Dwarf racial modifier you have to dump a frustrating amount of points into Cha at creation.

I did understand how EMA worked on GvM, however I had never thought of removing items after casting it. That is an interesting trick, although it sounds a bit annoying and time consuming. The only reason I took EMA was because I figured EW would be a bit redundant with EDR III.

Regardless, I doubt the Bard/RDD/PM build will come to fruition. It was just an idea I wanted to see on paper, but I think there are other more promising class combinations for my EDR/EER tank.
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« Reply #15 on: 06 January 2014, 09:45 »

While I'm on the Bard spell bit: one thing I found annoying about that Bard/RDD/PM build was that I went with Dwarf for the Con boost, helping in the EDR and HP department, however to start as a Bard there is a minimum Cha requirement and with the Dwarf racial modifier you have to dump a frustrating amount of points into Cha at creation.

Let's say you wanted starting stats of 18 con and 11 cha.
You get 30 points. Humans must put 3 of those into cha, to get to 11. Dwarves lose an extra two points, because they have to make up the -2 deficit from their racial mod.
That leaves you 27 points for a human to spend, and 25 for a dwarf. To get to 18 con, for a dwarf, costs you the same as getting to 16 con for a human, which is 10 points. Getting 18 con for a human costs 16 points.
This means you have 11 points left as a human, and 15 points left as a dwarf. You lose out on the bonus feat and skill points from being human, but you have better starting stats (as long as you don't try to raise your starting cha above 12). Whether that's worth it or not is up to you. As another example, getting 18 con and 14 cha would cost the same number of points for both races - dwarf has to pay 2 extra on cha, and saves 2 on con.
(http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Point_buy)

I did understand how EMA worked on GvM, however I had never thought of removing items after casting it. That is an interesting trick, although it sounds a bit annoying and time consuming. The only reason I took EMA was because I figured EW would be a bit redundant with EDR III.

It's not that annoying - you just put your items in the front of your inventory, put the AC boosting ones on while you rest, then cast EMA as soon as your rest finishes, and then right-click-equip the non-AC items from your inventory. As long as you queue EMA before you right-click-equip the items, it will wait until the spell has been cast to swap them. If you try to swap them from quickslots (aside from being a waste of a good quickslot) it'll just swap them immediately.

As for EW...you really want both, if you can get them.
Let's say you have 9/- DR from EDR III, 10 DR in all Phys types from your armour, and no % immunities to anything.
A random boss hits you for 100 slash damage. With that setup, you'd take 100 - 9 (EDR) - 10 (armour) = 81 damage.
With Warding up (+50/20 damage reduction) you would take 31 damage, because the spell would block 50 damage from anything except a weapon with +20 enhancement (which do not exist in this mod - even maxed AA only gets +15). So basically, Epic Warding is a blanket reduction of 50 physical damage from every single attack that hits you.

If you're also immune to critical hits, you've got very little to fear. They have to hit enough to penetrate your DR from feats and armour (which is probably gonna be around 15-19, if you have the right gear - maybe more), THEN they have to do another 50 damage on top of that, just to see any damage at all. If you have a % immunity as well, that gets applied first.
Warding is your trump card - when your health gets a bit low because a boss is hitting harder than expected, you put up Warding (which can't be interrupted, counterspelled, or dispelled) for some breathing room.

If you can only pick one though, pick EMA. It's vastly more useful.
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« Reply #16 on: 06 January 2014, 10:10 »

NLawson, I've been playing NWN since 2003. I fully understand how the Ability Point system works at Character Creation. Thank you.
I also understand how to cast spells, equip, and unequip items. I still think it is tedious.

Based on some of the responses I get on the forums, I would just like to clarify that because I ask for build help or advice, does not make me a complete incompetent moron when it comes to NWN. I apologize, but until now in my NWN career I've never had to make insanely specialized builds that can handle 80+ AB. Being an on again off again GvM player over the years, I am naive to much of the end-mod content, so it's nice to get some insight before I spend the time leveling a build.

Sorry, I'm tired and frustrated after tinkering with builds in Excel for the past several hours. Apparently it is next to impossible to build a Dwarven Rogue/Dwarven Defender/Harper Scout or a Halfling Rogue/Fighter/Harper Scout with IE, Epic Dodge, SC V and EDR III. [Sigh]


On the EW bit. That actually helps, thank you. Being that it was DR from a spell I figured it would make EDR obsolete in the end...even when stacked with DD class DR. Given your explanation it would actually seem better to forgo EDR feats entirely and rely on EW if you can get it.
« Last Edit: 06 January 2014, 10:15 by Ace-of-Spades » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: 06 January 2014, 16:00 »

Based on some of the responses I get on the forums, I would just like to clarify that because I ask for build help or advice, does not make me a complete incompetent moron when it comes to NWN.

Sorry - it's always safer to assume that the person you're talking to has no idea what you're talking about, rather than immediately launch into a detailed explanation and confuse the hell out of them. I didn't intend it to seem like I was talking down to you or anything. In your position I'd be snapping at me too, so don't worry about it.

As for warding vs EDR - you'd definitely be better with both, especially on a DR tank. Warding only absorbs 50 damage per level - it's best used once all the trash has died, to prevent wastage, and it won't stand up to someone like Baragor for very long, much less Aragorn or the BD bosses. Don't forget, you also have to deal with the crippled caster level (you might get 20 or so caster levels, if you have a heavy focus on PM or RDD) as well as the fact that you're taking massive hits from these bosses.

Also - if SC is Self-conceal, it IS virtually impossible to get it (30 dex is an insane requirement). It's also 100% not worth it, because you can match that level of concealment with potions of displacement, wands of imp invis...whatever you want. There are also quite a few spell and class mods that grant more than 50% concealment: epic transmutation focus and camoflage gives you 55% I believe, and shadowdancers and assassins can push it up towards 80% (undispellable by everything except Fairie Fire, too) with heavy focus. Shadowdancers also get the AC boost from Shadow Evade, which is why the Shadow-tank is such a good build.

Epic dodge, however, is fantastic. Combine that with a single enemy (say, Smaug, or the Balrog) and a high-level fighter with the widget, and they literally cannot hit you (it's possible to drain many bosses down to 1 attack per round, which epic dodge then evades).

Speaking of end-mod content - if you're going dex-focus, you want to take Blinding Speed. It's been modified, and it now grants you 50-round undispellable haste, twice per day. For the cost of one feat, it's well worth the investment.
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« Reply #18 on: 06 January 2014, 21:00 »

While this thread has skewed a little off topic, that is okay, I've found it very informative on GvM tank builds. Therefore I'm going to continue down these alternative paths of discussion.

Your Epic Dodge - Fighter Widget combo is a very neat idea. If only you could get a fighter build that can hit AND get Epic Dodge. I've already begun toying around with some...I doubt it will be possible in the end though.

That being said, I admittedly do not know much about Dex based builds as I've rarely ever played them. How does a Dex based tank work? How does a SD tank work? I'd love an explanation and some examples. Do you think it is possible to get a Ftr/SD/HS or close variant that can hit, proc. and epic dodge?
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« Reply #19 on: 06 January 2014, 22:18 »

Your Epic Dodge - Fighter Widget combo is a very neat idea. If only you could get a fighter build that can hit AND get Epic Dodge. I've already begun toying around with some...I doubt it will be possible in the end though.

While I would love to be able to claim credit for it, because it really is a great idea, that one was all Sest. Shadow tanks are even more dependant on gear than other types though (you need loads of stuff with Disc to avoid KD, while still getting the important DR and immunities for the un-dodgable things like IGMS), so until you have a pretty good collection of items it's really hard to make one work.

That being said, I admittedly do not know much about Dex based builds as I've rarely ever played them. How does a Dex based tank work? How does a SD tank work? I'd love an explanation and some examples. Do you think it is possible to get a Ftr/SD/HS or close variant that can hit, proc. and epic dodge?

I don't play any tanks, and I no longer have any of my dex toons (haven't made any on the new mod), so I'll have to leave most of this for other people to explain. DR tanks work by reducing the incoming damage, while Shadow tanks just straight-up avoid it altogether. High dex = high AC, plus you have both IE and a high concealment from Shadow Evade and you basically just stand there dodging until your evades run out. The original build had Parry as well, just for a final line of defence... but you can't use both IE and Parry at the same time, and Parry is terrible. 100 AC means you can comfortably sit there under a barrage of 80 ab hits and only 5% even have a chance of hitting you, and then to have 70% of those just miss outright makes you very sturdy indeed. Of course Ice Storm, Neg Burst, Horrids, and IGMS will all rip the tank to shreds, so enemy mages tend to be the priority.

I actually haven't considered F/SD/HS...it'd be something like a 25/10/5 spread, to get maximum procs while still getting Epic Dodge.
The problem is that dex-based toons are really weak in terms of damage because, unlike Str, Dex only contributes to AB, and only with Weapon Finesse (and limited weapon types). This is why sneak toons need to have large amounts of sneak damage to actually kill anything, and it's also why no one takes them on raids - the majority of bosses are sneak or crit immune, so your damage ends up being really low. With the Epic Dodge Fighter, you'd have a dex-based fighter with no sneak attacks - you would certainly be able to hit and proc, but it wouldn't really help you because you would do barely any damage, and in anything other than a straight 1v1 situation you'd still die because of the other things attacking you.

This is the same reason no one really plays archers, even though they can get 70 ab and 80 ac. They can't compete with hitters in terms of damage (and good arrows are SUPER rare and hard to get, so each miss really hurts), and they aren't nearly as tough to kill as a tank.
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« Reply #20 on: 06 January 2014, 23:02 »

...and good arrows are SUPER rare and hard to get, so each miss really hurts...

You'd think things like this would be good for adding to IG stores. We have all this gold stocked up and little options to spend it beyond level 40 (as far as I know). Ahh, but the IG merchants are another topic.


I had realized a Dex based tank or hitter would deal low damage, however I started out with the thought that I wanted to build a completely dedicated Tank for group raiding. That is, completely forgo Str (and therefore damage) and even AB if necessary (unless going for Fighter widget proc.) and focus completely on AC, Evasion, Resistance and Hit Points. Of course, I had not thought of the problem of a Dex based Tank being flanked by mobs.

A thought though....Dwarven Defender gets Defensive Awareness II at level 5. Would this not mitigate the flanking issue?

I think it's the puzzle solving aspect of character building that has drawn me to it lately. I am convinced that hiding somewhere within the mix of "Fighter - Rogue - Shadow Dancer - Dwarven Defender - Harper Scout," there is a class combination using Dwarf or Halfling with the potential for a genius dedicated Tank build.
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« Reply #21 on: 07 January 2014, 05:30 »

Lots of long posts here lol. Anyway, I still think the best dedicated tank in the mod as it is right now is the SD tank (4 Bard / 16 PM / 20 SD - 110 AC + 70% Concealment - 106 Diiscipline). The downside is that requires very specific gear to be good, and most of said gear is hard to find.
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« Reply #22 on: 07 January 2014, 11:46 »

That is, completely forgo Str (and therefore damage) and even AB if necessary (unless going for Fighter widget proc.) and focus completely on AC, Evasion, Resistance and Hit Points. Of course, I had not thought of the problem of a Dex based Tank being flanked by mobs.

A thought though....Dwarven Defender gets Defensive Awareness II at level 5. Would this not mitigate the flanking issue?

I think it's the puzzle solving aspect of character building that has drawn me to it lately. I am convinced that hiding somewhere within the mix of "Fighter - Rogue - Shadow Dancer - Dwarven Defender - Harper Scout," there is a class combination using Dwarf or Halfling with the potential for a genius dedicated Tank build.

I agree - somewhere in that mix is a great tank build waiting to be found...

I didn't realise you intended the F/SD/HS to be a tank build - it seems obvious in hindsight, considering the topic, but I just don't normally associate high fighter with tanks. In those circumstances...well I honestly can't say. I think the lack of sneak and crit immunity could seriously hurt it (wouldn't be able to tank Elrond, I don't think), but on the other hand if you COULD get high ac and enough ab to proc fairly often then you might actually have something there - you'd be pretty much dodge capped with HS+Shadow evade, plus your conceal would be solid and you'd still have the HS ab boost... and when your widget procs, you'd immediately make it much easier for the other hitters to start dealing damage - a shield drop or an ac penalty might be all it would take to pull some of them apart.

You'd only be able to single-wield, really, because the ac boost from a shield would be too useful to pass up, so your APR would be quite low...though you could always dual-wield most of the time (with high fighter I can't see it being feat-starved) and swap to a shield when you REALLY need it.
 
You might even be able to get Improved Whirlwind Attack (a lot of prerequisite feats and 23+ dex required, but it stops you being flanked and allows you to try and proc on everything 10 feet around you at full BAB). That would certainly remove the issues with only having 5 or so APR...

Definitely worth taking that one for a spin in the test area, just to get some rough estimates.
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« Reply #23 on: 07 January 2014, 17:17 »

I agree - somewhere in that mix is a great tank build waiting to be found...

I didn't realise you intended the F/SD/HS to be a tank build - it seems obvious in hindsight, considering the topic, but I just don't normally associate high fighter with tanks.

I actually am not sure it would make a good tank. Going for high fighter levels for widget proc. does seem more of a hitter build, but in this case focusing in Dex produces low damage which I would think is the opposite of what you want on a hitter build. I was thinking more of using the Widget abilities defensively in this case. I'm still not sure it would make an adequate tank, but I suppose that's what testing is for.

The APR issue was something I had not thought about. I always forget Imp. WW Attack exists as I honestly do not think I have ever used it. I agree that may be worth looking at. Does anyone know if Imp. WWA bugs out like regular WWA when using it on three enemies?
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