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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Character Builds  |  Tank Prototypes
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Author Topic: Tank Prototypes  (Read 5962 times)
Ace-of-Spades
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« on: 13 January 2014, 07:27 »

There was a nice discussion going in my previous thread (Epic Resistances) about tank philosophies, strategies and feat selection. Instead of cluttering that up with tank builds though I figured I would just start a new thread.

I've been leveling a hitter build, but I still intend to make a tank. I want to explore some build ideas and get some input from our local build experts. I'll post some of my build ideas for discussion/critiquing below.

My number one choice right now seems to be the Bard/Pale Master/Shadowdancer. I've recently seen Wake of Death leveling one of these that is doing fairly well, and I know others have said this is one of the top tank builds of choice lately. I've made up a preliminary build of my own, a Ba4/PM16/SD20 (posted below). I'm not sold on my feat selection. The third SD epic feat seems like a crap shoot.

Another build I've been messing with is a Fighter/Dwarven Defender/Shadowdancer. I like the use of DD for not only damage reduction and a little AC, but Defensive Awareness II. From what I understand this should eliminate flanking bonuses and loss of AC to surrounding mobs. I could be misunderstanding the mechanics of that though, so please let me know. The thing with this build is that you end up in that weird "tweener" area with Fighter levels, where you get extra feats, but not enough levels to take advantage of the Widget.

I am still struggling with whether EDR is worth it. In order to get EDR on these Dex based tank builds means sacrificing Dex for 21 Con, in the end, which I am not sure is a great idea. I am sure there are plenty of other good tank builds people have out there (i.e. Shifter/Construct and DD/PM tanks), which I do not know how to create, so please feel free to post them in this thread as well. It would be nice to get multiple tank builds in this thread so we can not only tweak and improve them, but weigh the Pros and Cons of different approaches. Also, please note that I am talking about dedicated tank builds here. In other words AC, Evasion, DR and ER are priorities while AB, Damage and Strength are not. 


Bard/PM/SD Build:
Quote

Bard(4), Pale Master(16), Shadowdancer(20), Halfling

STR: 10
DEX: 18 (30)
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 12

Halfling: (Fearless, Good Aim, Lucky, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Move Silently, Small Stature)
01: Bard(1): Luck of Heroes
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Pale Master(1): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
05: Pale Master(2)
06: Pale Master(3): Expertise, {Darkvision}
07: Pale Master(4)
08: Pale Master(5): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
09: Pale Master(6): Dodge
10: Pale Master(7)
11: Pale Master(8 )
12: Pale Master(9): DEX+1, Mobility, (DEX=21)
13: Pale Master(10)
14: Shadowdancer(1): {Hide in Plain Sight}
15: Shadowdancer(2): Improved Expertise, {Evasion, Uncanny Dodge I}
16: Shadowdancer(3): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Shadowdancer(4)
18: Shadowdancer(5): Toughness, {Defensive Roll}
19: Shadowdancer(6)
20: Shadowdancer(7): DEX+1, {Slippery Mind}, (DEX=23)
21: Shadowdancer(8 ): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=24)
22: Pale Master(11)
23: Shadowdancer(9)
24: Shadowdancer(10): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, {Improved Evasion}, (DEX=26)
25: Shadowdancer(11)
26: Shadowdancer(12)
27: Pale Master(12): Armor Skin
28: Shadowdancer(13): DEX+1, Blinding Speed, (DEX=27)
29: Shadowdancer(14)
30: Shadowdancer(15): Epic Energy Resistance: Fire I
31: Shadowdancer(16): Epic Dodge
32: Pale Master(13): DEX+1, Epic Energy Resistance: Sonic I, (DEX=28)
33: Shadowdancer(17): Epic Energy Resistance: Electricity I
34: Shadowdancer(18)
35: Pale Master(14)
36: Pale Master(15): DEX+1, Epic Energy Resistance: Cold I, (DEX=29)
37: Bard(4)
38: Pale Master(16): Epic Spell: Epic Warding
39: Shadowdancer(19): Epic Energy Resistance: Fire II, Epic Reflexes
40: Shadowdancer(20): DEX+1, (DEX=30)

Hitpoints: 423
Skillpoints: 266
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 24/23/37
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Traps: +2, Fear: +2
BAB: 22
AB (max, naked): 33 (melee), 34 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 41/43
Spell Casting: Bard(2)
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 40(40), Hide 10(24), Move Silently 8(24), Spellcraft 40(42), Tumble 40(50), UMD 40(41), remaining skillpoints 88


F/DD/SD Build:
Quote

Fighter(10), Dwarven Defender(10), Shadowdancer(20), Dwarf

STR: 12
DEX: 16 (28)
CON: 18 (21)
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 6

Dwarf: (Darkvision, Defensive Training vs. Giants, Stonecunning, Hardiness vs. Poison, Hardiness vs. Spells, Offensive Training vs. Goblinoids, Offensive Training vs. Orcs, Skill Affinity: Lore)
01: Fighter(1): Luck of Heroes, Weapon Finesse
02: Fighter(2): Dodge
03: Fighter(3): Mobility
04: Fighter(4): CON+1, Spring Attack, (CON=19)
05: Fighter(5)
06: Fighter(6): Toughness, Expertise
07: Fighter(7)
08: Dwarven Defender(1): CON+1, {Defensive Stance}, (CON=20)
09: Dwarven Defender(2): Whirlwind Attack, {Defensive Awareness I}
10: Dwarven Defender(3)
11: Dwarven Defender(4)
12: Dwarven Defender(5): DEX+1, Improved Expertise, (DEX=17)
13: Dwarven Defender(6)
14: Dwarven Defender(7)
15: Dwarven Defender(8 ): Lightning Reflexes
16: Dwarven Defender(9): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
17: Dwarven Defender(10)
18: Shadowdancer(1): Iron Will, {Hide in Plain Sight}
19: Shadowdancer(2): {Evasion, Uncanny Dodge I}
20: Shadowdancer(3): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
21: Shadowdancer(4): Great Constitution I, (CON=21)
22: Shadowdancer(5): {Defensive Roll}
23: Shadowdancer(6)
24: Shadowdancer(7): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I, {Slippery Mind}, (DEX=21)
25: Shadowdancer(8 )
26: Shadowdancer(9)
27: Shadowdancer(10): Great Dexterity II, {Improved Evasion}, (DEX=22)
28: Shadowdancer(11): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
29: Shadowdancer(12)
30: Shadowdancer(13): Great Dexterity III, Improved Whirlwind Attack, (DEX=24)
31: Shadowdancer(14)
32: Shadowdancer(15): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
33: Shadowdancer(16): Great Dexterity IV, Blinding Speed, (DEX=26)
34: Shadowdancer(17)
35: Shadowdancer(18)
36: Shadowdancer(19): DEX+1, Armor Skin, Epic Dodge, (DEX=27)
37: Shadowdancer(20)
38: Fighter(8 ): Epic Damage Reduction I
39: Fighter(9): Epic Damage Reduction II
40: Fighter(10): DEX+1, Epic Damage Reduction III, (DEX=28)

Hitpoints: 620
Skillpoints: 252
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 29/22/30
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Traps: +3, Poison: +2
BAB: 29
AB (max, naked): 38 (melee), 38 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 29/32
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 43(44), Hide 10(19), Move Silently 8(17), Tumble 40(49), remaining skillpoints 128

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« Reply #1 on: 14 January 2014, 19:04 »

I would skip the epic energy resistances if I could to go for more dex on the first build. And if you take the last PM level on 39th lvl you can get both Epic Mage Armor and Epic Warding.

Now that the old server is up I see that I have started an almost similar build to yours before the server went dark.
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Ace-of-Spades
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« Reply #2 on: 14 January 2014, 19:22 »

I was wondering if those EER feats were worth it. I think to make use of them you really need to sink a lot of feats/bonus feats into picking up multiple instances of EER. That makes a high Fighter build seem better for snagging them...or more PM I suppose.

I was trying to figure out a way to get both EMA and EW, but I couldn't. I'll have to go take another look and shift some levels around. According to the NWNwiki though Pale Master level 15 is required to take Epic Spells, so I'm not sure you can get both with 16 PM levels.
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Wake of death
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« Reply #3 on: 14 January 2014, 19:48 »

Ace,

Yes you can 2 of my tanks have both EMA & EW with 16 PM lvls.
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Ace-of-Spades
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« Reply #4 on: 14 January 2014, 21:01 »

Right you are!

Sorry, I must have been tired when I was working on this build.

Revised Below
Quote

Bard(4), Pale Master(16), Shadowdancer(20), Halfling

STR: 10
DEX: 18 (32)
CON: 14
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 12

Halfling: (Fearless, Good Aim, Lucky, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Move Silently, Small Stature)
01: Bard(1): Luck of Heroes
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Pale Master(1): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
05: Pale Master(2)
06: Pale Master(3): Expertise, {Darkvision}
07: Pale Master(4)
08: Pale Master(5): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
09: Pale Master(6): Dodge
10: Pale Master(7)
11: Pale Master(8 )
12: Pale Master(9): DEX+1, Mobility, (DEX=21)
13: Pale Master(10)
14: Shadowdancer(1): {Hide in Plain Sight}
15: Shadowdancer(2): Improved Expertise, {Evasion, Uncanny Dodge I}
16: Shadowdancer(3): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Shadowdancer(4)
18: Shadowdancer(5): Toughness, {Defensive Roll}
19: Shadowdancer(6)
20: Shadowdancer(7): DEX+1, {Slippery Mind}, (DEX=23)
21: Shadowdancer(8 ): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=24)
22: Pale Master(11)
23: Shadowdancer(9)
24: Shadowdancer(10): DEX+1, Great Dexterity II, {Improved Evasion}, (DEX=26)
25: Shadowdancer(11)
26: Shadowdancer(12)
27: Pale Master(12): Armor Skin
28: Shadowdancer(13): DEX+1, Blinding Speed, (DEX=27)
29: Shadowdancer(14)
30: Shadowdancer(15): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=28)
31: Shadowdancer(16): Epic Dodge
32: Pale Master(13): DEX+1, Epic Energy Resistance: Sonic I, (DEX=29)
33: Shadowdancer(17): Epic Energy Resistance: Sonic II
34: Shadowdancer(18)
35: Shadowdancer(19): Epic Reflexes
36: Pale Master(14): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=31)
37: Bard(4)
38: Pale Master(15)
39: Pale Master(16): Epic Spell: Epic Warding, Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor
40: Shadowdancer(20): DEX+1, (DEX=32)

Hitpoints: 423
Skillpoints: 266
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 24/23/38
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Traps: +2, Fear: +2
BAB: 22
AB (max, naked): 34 (melee), 35 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 42/44
Spell Casting: Bard(2)
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 40(40), Hide 10(25), Move Silently 8(25), Spellcraft 40(42), Tumble 40(51), UMD 40(41), remaining skillpoints 88

« Last Edit: 14 January 2014, 21:05 by Ace-of-Spades » Logged
Wake of death
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« Reply #5 on: 14 January 2014, 22:58 »

Ace,

I got EMA & EW at lvl 36.

Don't need to wait until 39. At lvl 36/37 I am at 100 ac.

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GreyDeth
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« Reply #6 on: 15 January 2014, 12:49 »

Wow looks good!  ...
I'm quite inspired now (especially after Wake's remark saying hes got AC 100) to make (almost?) same thing ... was trying to build another better AC tank than the one I already have, but without any luck so far.

Just wondering though ...
Why didnt you max Hide and Move Silently? ...  being a SD and all
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« Reply #7 on: 15 January 2014, 16:31 »

Grey,

The reason is the hide and ms dont help the shadow evade. You can max them if you want but wont help the build.
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« Reply #8 on: 15 January 2014, 16:34 »

When making my builds in excel I usually max the most important skills for the build first. This includes skills like Dicipline, Tumble, Spellcraft etc., and any skills necessary for attaining prestige classes. I then leave most of the extra skill points to figure out as I go. This also gives others who want to replicate the build a little freedom in their personal skill selection.

When leveling that Ba/PM/SD tank I would most likely put a lot of my extra points into Hide and Move Silently.

EDIT: ...and what Wake said.
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« Reply #9 on: 15 January 2014, 17:01 »

Ah thnx didnt realize/knew that it wont help ...

But still ... my favorites are SD-like builds and ive won lots of npc fights using stealth and fight techniques so I favor hide and move silently very much  frodo3

Besides shadow evade can only be used 3 times a day ... most of the time SE will not be used ... stealth however I use a lot.

Nevertheless thnx Ace and Wake ... learning all the time  Cheesy
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« Reply #10 on: 15 January 2014, 17:40 »

I think what Wake was trying to point out is that H and MS just wont work well against bosses, so as a tank build they aren't important. However, that's why I leave the extra skill points. If a player likes playing stealthy and wants to use those skills while leveling or fighting regular mobs, they can tailor it to their own play styles.

I just came up with a couple other builds I would like to share. While of course they wont reach the AC levels of the Ba/PM/SD tank, I still thought they were interesting. Keep in mind these are pretty rough. I made them in Excel but haven't tested either, so there is probably plenty of room for improvement...or they may not make good tank builds at all. Just tossing some ideas around.


First, a Monk-Weapon Master-Shadowdancer. I wanted to try to get the Monk Wisdom AC bonus and other goodies, along with a Weapon Master's AC benefits from a Quarterstaff as well as some AB. SD for obvious reasons. I also wanted to go with Halfling race, but they cannot wield quarterstaves. Sad
I think this build dances between a tank and hitter though....oh, and it's damage is terrible.
Quote

Monk(12), Weapon Master(8 ), Shadowdancer(20), Human

STR: 10
DEX: 16 (30)
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Monk(1): Dodge, Mobility, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
02: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
03: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Monk(5)
06: Monk(6): Expertise, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}
07: Monk(7)
08: Monk(8 ): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Shadowdancer(1): Spring Attack, {Hide in Plain Sight}
10: Shadowdancer(2): {Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge I}
11: Shadowdancer(3)
12: Shadowdancer(4): DEX+1, Whirlwind Attack, (DEX=19)
13: Shadowdancer(5): {Defensive Roll}
14: Shadowdancer(6)
15: Shadowdancer(7): Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff, {Slippery Mind}
16: Weapon Master(1): DEX+1, Weapon of Choice: Quarterstaff, (DEX=20)
17: Weapon Master(2)
18: Weapon Master(3): Improved Expertise
19: Weapon Master(4)
20: Weapon Master(5): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
21: Weapon Master(6): Epic Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff
22: Monk(9): {Improved Evasion}
23: Weapon Master(7)
24: Weapon Master(8 ): DEX+1, Armor Skin, (DEX=22)
25: Shadowdancer(8 )
26: Shadowdancer(9)
27: Monk(10): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=23)
28: Shadowdancer(10): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
29: Shadowdancer(11)
30: Shadowdancer(12): Great Dexterity II, (DEX=25)
31: Shadowdancer(13): Epic Dodge
32: Monk(11): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
33: Shadowdancer(14): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=27)
34: Shadowdancer(15)
35: Shadowdancer(16): Blinding Speed
36: Shadowdancer(17): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=29)
37: Monk(12)
38: Shadowdancer(18)
39: Shadowdancer(19): Epic Prowess, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
40: Shadowdancer(20): DEX+1, (DEX=30)

Hitpoints: 416
Skillpoints: 325
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 21/21/35
Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +2
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 37 (melee), 37 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 34/34
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 40(50), Hide 10(20), Intimidate 4(3), Move Silently 8(18), Tumble 40(50), remaining skillpoints 219


In that same thought I considered adding DD for some of it's GvM benefits and a little DR.
Quote

Monk(10), Dwarven Defender(10), Shadowdancer(20), Dwarf

STR: 10
DEX: 16 (32)
CON: 16
WIS: 14
INT: 14
CHA: 6

Dwarf: (Darkvision, Defensive Training vs. Giants, Stonecunning, Hardiness vs. Poison, Hardiness vs. Spells, Offensive Training vs. Goblinoids, Offensive Training vs. Orcs, Skill Affinity: Lore)
01: Monk(1): Dodge, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
02: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
03: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Monk(5)
06: Monk(6): Mobility, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}
07: Monk(7)
08: Monk(8 ): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Shadowdancer(1): Toughness, {Hide in Plain Sight}
10: Shadowdancer(2): {Uncanny Dodge I}
11: Dwarven Defender(1): {Defensive Stance}
12: Dwarven Defender(2): DEX+1, Expertise, {Defensive Awareness I}, (DEX=19)
13: Dwarven Defender(3)
14: Dwarven Defender(4)
15: Dwarven Defender(5): Improved Expertise
16: Dwarven Defender(6): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
17: Dwarven Defender(7)
18: Dwarven Defender(8 ): Blind Fight
19: Dwarven Defender(9)
20: Dwarven Defender(10): DEX+1, (DEX=21)
21: Shadowdancer(3): Armor Skin
22: Shadowdancer(4)
23: Shadowdancer(5): {Defensive Roll}
24: Shadowdancer(6): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I, (DEX=23)
25: Shadowdancer(7): {Slippery Mind}
26: Shadowdancer(8 )
27: Monk(9): Great Dexterity II, {Improved Evasion}, (DEX=24)
28: Shadowdancer(9): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
29: Shadowdancer(10)
30: Shadowdancer(11): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=26)
31: Shadowdancer(12)
32: Shadowdancer(13): DEX+1, Epic Dodge, (DEX=27)
33: Shadowdancer(14): Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=28)
34: Shadowdancer(15)
35: Shadowdancer(16): Blinding Speed
36: Shadowdancer(17): DEX+1, Great Dexterity V, (DEX=30)
37: Monk(10)
38: Shadowdancer(18)
39: Shadowdancer(19): Great Dexterity VI, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline, (DEX=31)
40: Shadowdancer(20): DEX+1, (DEX=32)

Hitpoints: 520
Skillpoints: 278
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/25/33
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +2, Mind Effects: +2, Traps: +3, Poison: +2
BAB: 27
AB (max, naked): 38 (melee), 38 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 35/35
Spell Casting:
Alignment Changes: 0

Discipline 40(50), Hide 10(21), Move Silently 8(19), Tumble 40(51), remaining skillpoints 180

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« Reply #11 on: 25 February 2018, 22:41 »

Level 29 on post #4 in this thread. No idea why there is Blinding Speed.
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« Reply #12 on: 26 February 2018, 22:59 »

When the build was posted it would have been before perma-haste was added to the mod, so blinding speed would have given 50 rounds of undispellable haste at level 40.

Having said that, even with perma-haste, blinding speed is still worth taking for tanks or dex builds as it will give an additional 4 AC on top of the AC bonus from perma-haste.
« Last Edit: 26 February 2018, 23:03 by -firecracker- » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: 04 March 2018, 12:49 »

Finished it a week ago. Got some gear, mainly basicis. It's pgood. Managed to tank the mordor bridge by just basing a gate. Then the wizzard knocked me down. Went south pfast after that.

I picked epic skill focus tumble at the time i saw blinding speed listed. I also forgot to do proper bard spells.
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