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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Players Forum  |  Drop Rates, the 'new normal', and how can we stay alive?
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Author Topic: Drop Rates, the 'new normal', and how can we stay alive?  (Read 1815 times)
Clevar0ne
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« on: 25 May 2020, 19:59 »

Hi all four of us!

I'm not a gamer, so I wont be migrating from NWN to some new game unless it's just like the old Dungeons&Dragons I played as a kid.  And until recently, GvM is the only server I ever played on.  I'd prefer to stay here.  I like LOTR theme, the server is huge, well built, and interesting.  But current server design is for very specialized toons run by very experienced players in well-balanced parties.  The super drop was coveted so you could put it on a different toon and go PVP the crap out of other players.  Changes need to be made to recognize that where 40 players on at a time was once normal (I looked up an old post where I was requesting to increase the amount of players on the server, because I couldn't get on for 2 days because it was FULL), now 2 players is rare, 3 is shocking, and 4 a miracle (and only for 5 minutes).  

On the other hand, Firecracker is the only developer as I understand it.  Ask me to put hours of programming, debugging, and testing into a project 15 yrs old and with 4 players, and do it for free, and guess what my answer will be.  So asking for changes without understanding the impact of what is being requested is childish.  I saw a lot of that in the old board posts from players with 'great ideas' and no idea the scope of work they were suggesting, or the impact on the entire rest of the code that has been built over years from many developers.  We don't even know how well documented it is.  Plus..
- EE, CEP, and Steam are new variables - some may change.  Who will update?  Stable, limited changes, limited customization is our friend.
- I'm concerned this last crash may actually be the end anyway.  Down for days and re-crash smells like a change or update somewhere that isn't the code or the server.  

Assuming we're not already dead, the only things I can think of that might be doable without killing Firecracker, and without killing the balance on the server if people ever DID come back, are as follows;

1) Big increase in drop rate - the drop rates seem to be fixed % based on the challenge rating of the Dropper.  Bosses are certain %, I've seen different % on different types of monsters.  I thought there might be a table in the code, and if the table is found it can be altered (way up!).  Either everything or just bosses, whatever is easier.  I've not seen the code and am not a programmer but am familiar with how engineering teams are run/managed for this type of stuff.  I have no idea if I'm right, but if it's not relatively simple, quick, and safe, I cant ask Firecracker to do it.  Just not fair.  He'll let us know what can/can't be done

2) Thought about removing item class/alignment restrictions, but I'm pretty sure that's an item by item change, which would be a BIG and time consuming job.  That seems to be a no-go to me.  There'd be 2 years of 'oh, you forgot THIS!'.  Better to ignore such a big job unless there was a switch, and I think any such switch might break stuff.

3) Forge system - My understanding is that there are plug-in forges available.  If it requires a lot of customization, it needs to be ignored, but if true and easy to implement, it could be the answer.  Make it lvl 40 only (even forging a +1 dagger is lvl 40), very expensive (generating gold isn't terribly difficult when you're farming at higher levels, might as well spend it), and PURPLE or some other color so it's flagged.  If we ever do get a player base back, and PVP between lvl 40 toons becomes a thing again, we can strip the PURPLES without the whole server wipe/huge job/piss everyone off event.  This would be the true solution, because we could work to build those super items solo players would need to make a solo toon viable.  It would also make building versatile, non-shifter/dragon toons useful again.  

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: 26 May 2020, 06:15 by Clevar0ne » Logged
bad_karma
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« Reply #1 on: 25 May 2020, 21:34 »

I'd also favor an increase in drop rate. Probably not to the point that every boss item drops in 3 runs, but who wants to kill Baragor 100 times and still don't get his axe, right, _right_, RIGHT??!!?? (ok, this may be my own frustration at work ;-))

Also, it is probably (not 100% sure, but I've done a little bit of coding on the server waaaaay back) the easiest change to implement.

Regarding removal of class/alignment restrictions: I'd be against that for two reasons.
1. The alignment restrictions for class selection in characters is already gone, so you already have added flexibility compared to the old old days.
2. Part of the fun is having toons at two sides of the isle, just to be able to loot that gear for your Gondor that all the uber Gondor bosses are wearing and vice versa.

Of course, I am probably missing some stuff, so maybe you can pursuade me in changing my opinion ;-) wisdom comes with age and we're all a bit older now!

Anyway.. drop rate up: +1!!
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Clevar0ne
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« Reply #2 on: 25 May 2020, 23:34 »

bad karma, as a developer are you also involved in server maintenance and some of the work in getting this stuff done?  I was under the impression firecracker was alone in that dark, dark place.

1st, would love to hear your impression of the forge.....

2nd,drop rate - I can tell by your frustration_RIGHT??!!??_ that you get we're playing free on someone else's hard work (maybe yours too, so thank you).  I think a much higher drop rate is warranted.  I wouldn't want to see 3 runs without any drop.  Maybe not a complete yard-sale (any hockey players out there?) but it gets old.  And most of us wont even be using the gear.  We just want to SEE it, COVET it, SAVE it on our many mules and call it our precious.  There are no other toons we want to fill out at a lower level to PVP everyone with, and if we're farming a boss it's one of very few builds.....and the class/alignment restriction wont work on those builds.  

3rd, class/alignment restrictions - It is part of the fun, and a requirement if you want to truly explore the server, to have toons on both sides.  I always have, since the very beginning.  (Made sure I had PVP toons at LVL range on both sides, depending on who was logged in.)  But once you loot that gear, you should be able to use it.  Killing UMD on boss items, server wipe, de-power-ifying items, and putting class/alignment restrictions on items was aimed at pushing the player base toward the activities that 'the server' wanted to promote.  (oh!  spell casters with multiple damage shields...Shinee Pennee would be useless now) Combination of using different classes, keeping balance, promoting party play and discouraging solo 'farming', etc.  All so some players didn't have 'uber toons' that others ran into in PVP.  
           Funny we used Uber as an adjective before we used it to get home from the bar.
No PVP anymore, and no big party play.  But also, no use for all the cool build combinations you could make because there's no use for anything that isn't a lvl 40 capable of soloing.  With new weaker gear, bosses with superpowers, and small player base, that means shifter dragon.  

Only reason I wouldn't ask for removal of class/alignment restrictions on items is that I think it would be a lot of work; hence the forge.

Persuasion time - A LOT of work was done on class/spell/feat changes.  Alignment restrictions were tossed.  There are a MILLION reasons to build a MILLION different types of toons....its like the biggest toy store in the world.  Unfortunately there's nobody to fight except the Bosses, and the equipment in the mod forces us to use a very few builds.  GvM became hardware intensive, and then the hardware store was de-stocked.  
The only life left on this server is solo life, and letting people build the gear they need to complement their builds will allow for a creativity that those few players left will like.  And it may attract a few new players to come and stay.  Letting the players become 'overpowered' is the only way to enjoy the server.  

How'd I do?
« Last Edit: 25 May 2020, 23:37 by Clevar0ne » Logged
-firecracker-
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« Reply #3 on: 28 May 2020, 21:15 »

Hey all

Just showing face to this thread and specifically drop rates (when I get a bit more time I will also post some thoughts on other aspects).

So in short after ClevarOne PM'd me regarding drop % change, I went away and had a think about it. I need to double check the code in the mod but my thoughts are on the line of introducing a DM tool to manually manipulate the drop rate, similar to what I did for the XP bonus. On start-up/reboot of the server the drop rate can also be manipulated by applying a modifier to the base rate to make it higher. To me this feels a semi-permanent change as while the server would start up with an increased rate, the core drop rate is not touched making the change much easy to reverse by just removing the modifier (not that I think it would ever need to be).

As ClevarOne has kind of worked out and said - making changes to the mod at this stage of my life it not really high on my priority list. Life has changed, the game is very old and I don't even have NWN or the toolset currently installed. But for significant bugs (that I have mostly all resolved now) or core changes to keep some level of popularity such as this drop rate increase, I am prepared to put in the time when I can to make such changes if well founded.

On a side note, maybe it might be an idea to call out for a volunteer and if anyone would like to get involved in maintaining the mod from a coding point of view. Appreciate that I wouldn't want just anyone as it is VERY easy to break things if you don't know what you are doing, so some experience would be required. Just throwing this out there I guess Cheesy

-fc-
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Clevar0ne
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« Reply #4 on: 04 June 2020, 20:12 »

"Volunteer to get involved in maintaining the mod?........"
(Pretend I had a Crickets emoji)

I don't have the skill to do it myself, but have access to engineers in my employ (probably not in their job description, but I can edit that.....).  How's the documentation?
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bad_karma
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« Reply #5 on: 05 June 2020, 17:31 »

@CleverOne: I sometimes helped hfodf when he was still doing a lot of scripting for the server. At the moment I guess only Fire is actually doing anything on the mod.

I think I did get a copy of the mod quite recently, so maybe I'll take a look at the drop script. At least for a lot of the bosses the same script seems to run, judging by the logging you see in-game. If that is really the case, then adding a simple multiplier there shouldn't be too hard (possibly altered by an ingame item for DMs).

Still, I'll first leave it to Fire. If he needs help, he can reach out. I would need a fresher copy of the mod anyways.
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Clevar0ne
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« Reply #6 on: 06 June 2020, 14:40 »

Looks like firecracker has a plan for drop rate increase with DM tool to manually manipulate.  Bad karma seems to be describing similar approach.  I figured the drop rate was a standard script for the same reason bad karma did; the scripts in battle log.  However, my bet is the script is also a multiplier against the rating/level of the boss/killed thing, so bringing up the drop rate may bring up rate on everything in the mod.  I'm completely fine with that.  

I'd appreciate if you could comment on the idea of a forge on the server.  I really think the only way to make all the work done on classes/spells etc. viable is to let players build equipment to make non dragons viable to play solo.  It's 3 options (unless you see a 4th)
1) Forge that lets players make powerful items so other classes etc are viable to play solo (overpower is no longer the concern it was; there's nobody left and there's no pvp).  Opens up creativity in players for building toons and equipment combos and will draw more time/play in mod (new goodies!!)
2) Tone down bosses and sometimes entire areas, and add more/better equipment/make current equipment playable by stripping the class/align/etc restrictions - again so solo play with other classes is viable.
3) accept that very few builds are viable and waste all the work done, and accept that the best parts of the mod are not playable.

#2 is off the table because of the work and time involved.  #3 means that the increased drop rate will increase play for a period, but wear out.  

#1, Forge, will unlock the mod big time.
a) Players will spend more time on mod, building multiple combinations of classes to experiment
b) Figuring out what can/cant be made on forge, and how building the different items to complement builds will affect viability.  
c) Will be cash hungry, so more play needed to build all the lovely toys.
d) WONT unbalance - nobody's PVPing (if we could set up some PVP scheduled times, we could add a lvl requirement and mod location,,,,maybe someone wants to?  I'll post elsewhere).  For anyone thinking that 'now the bosses will be too easy' ......look at where we are now.  Either they will never be fought, or we need to let players build the equipment they need to fight them.  And there will still be a value limit on each piece of equipment.

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soulstler
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« Reply #7 on: 11 June 2020, 06:52 »

I also really miss the days when there was a waiting list to get one.  I don't play much like I used to for several reasons, Life, other projects, etc  I also miss the social aspect of when it was busier.  I have noticed there is a big resurgent of D&D content on platforms like Twitch.

Being a streamer myself I have often wondered if we could setup a discord  for it and have several of us get one and stream it on Twitch, throw it in the D&D category  and see what happens.  I would be more than happy to stream it on my channel if I could get a couple of regular players to join me.  You don't have to know how to stream or have the equipment, other than a Mix for the Discord Server.  I have my own server, I could just setup a channel on there for this.

I'm hoping something like this might bring more people to the server.  So if anyone is interested and playing with me while on stream let me know. It will be a work in progress at first, but I am very willing and excited to try this.  If you want you can look for me on twitch/facebook/youtube under my gaming name Aszull.  So if any of this sounds interesting to anyone let me know.  I really think a little of this will bring back some interest in the server.

As for coding and such I really wish I could help, but maybe something like this might bring a few "helpers" our way.

Thanks everyone!
SoulStler a.k.a. Aszull, your very, nearly, semi-professional gamer and streamer.
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-firecracker-
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« Reply #8 on: 20 June 2020, 00:42 »

Just an update to say I have my old iMac back which has Windows installed on it so hoping to crack on with what I've outlined above.

-fc-
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myx79
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« Reply #9 on: 20 June 2020, 23:23 »

I like the idea of the forge.

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GreyDeth
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« Reply #10 on: 21 June 2020, 12:55 »

 :pompom: :pompom: :pompom:

Just an update to say I have my old iMac back which has Windows installed on it so hoping to crack on with what I've outlined above.

-fc-
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