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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Players Forum  |  New release - with your help
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Author Topic: New release - with your help  (Read 2787 times)
-firecracker-
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« on: 18 August 2020, 22:34 »

Hi folks

I appreciate it has been some time before an update of the mod. The last update was in-fact 2 years ago and was pre-EE.

As you can probably tell I'm not the most active dev these days as time is very limited (I'm still looking for any dev volunteers who may wish to lend a helping hand - just let me know). But I am planning to spend some time on the mod as I think it could do with a little love.

Once I get hold of the current EE version of the mod from Grey (as I currently don't have access to the EE server to pull it down myself) I am planning to work on a few things that I have identified as being high priority that would just be nice to get out for you guys.

I'm really out of the loop in terms of gameplay on NWN:EE and I find forums extremely difficult to track issues so things reported easily get lost and forgotten about, sorry about that.

Anyway the things I'd like to include which I know of already are:

1) Increasing the base drop rate (at server startup) which has been requested several times
2) Looking into the consequences of being able to select Wemic/Brownie races
3) Looking into the crashes (although there is little info to go off here)

On the point of Wemic/Brownie races:
  • Is this currently a problem? E.g. do these races get silly benefits over other races and are considered over powered?
  • Would it be a problem to players to just 'remove' the selection of these races?

If there is anything else that is bugging players or think could do with a look at them please let me know in this thread. I'll try to keep track of them as best as possible and maybe even keep a list in this post so things don't get lost.

One of the other things I am aware of is that meta magic broke for shifters on EE, but there was little that could be done about this due to it being hard-coded in the core game. I'm assuming this is the case but I'll add it to the list.

Thanks!

-fc-




LIST FOR REFERENCE:
- Drop rate increase

- Wemic/Brownie race selection - investigate

- Crashes - investigate but might have been hardware related

- Shifter meta magic

- Check out AB progression of unarmed shifter shapes - EE vs Original (no changes have been made but core game might be behaving differently)
« Last Edit: 20 August 2020, 23:33 by -firecracker- » Logged
MissionFailed
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« Reply #1 on: 19 August 2020, 00:46 »

I vote to keep the Wemic and Brownie races.

The Wemic and Brownie races are kinda balanced. They give HUGE ability scores in some areas and other scores take a HUGE hit.

Brownies make some awesome wisdom, charisma, and/or dexterity based builds, especially dragon builds. If done correctly, it's very possible to achieve dragon before level 30. The earliest I've achieved dragon is level 30 with brownie. All non-Brownie races I've used took me to level 36 to get dragon.

Wemics are geared towards warrior builds and make excellent hitters.

If it's possible, I wouldn't mind them being faction specific. Example: Wemics can only be Mords and Brownies can only be Gonds... or vice versa. Or design a prestige class for them that are faction and alignment specific (must be good or evil for the prestige class).

Wemics make the absolute best mules.
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bad_karma
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« Reply #2 on: 19 August 2020, 11:54 »

Regarding brownie and wemic races:

A brownie gets +7 dex +5 char +3 wis and +3 int at the expense of -4 strength (top of my head). Compared to the usual +2/-2 kind of perks on other races, I think it is clear that the brownie's stats are nowhere near balanced. On top of that, the brownie seems to get dodge as a bonus feat, from which almost any dex-based build would benefit, because it is usually a prerequisite for either dex-based prestige classes, or follow up feats, or both.

A wemic gets +7 str +1 dex +1 con at expense of quite some charisma (again top of my head), but for most min/max strength builds, that char drop doesn't have a lot of impact. On top of that, it is the only selectable race that is considered "large" size, meaning he can for instance wield greatsword in 1 hand, allowing a shield in the other, or dual-wield rapiers, etc. Also, the large size gives bonus to knockdown.

Another way of saying it: in general any dex build on the forum will get better when choosing brownie and any strength build takes wemic and those two races will soon be the only ones on the server. If that is not a sign of them being overpowered, then I don't know what is.

All that being said, the real question is: is this a problem? The few players that are still around know that the server is actually quite difficult to play nowadays, because you cannot just form a 5 man army to march into Minas Tirith or kill the Balrog like you could in the good old days. Maybe with these new races enabled, build-builders get the opportunity to squeeze some dearly needed extra punch out of their toons and can finally play some of the harder content again. I, for one, have had a blast with Skywolf so far, trying to get some weird builds to work that were previously not doable (my favorite so far is a hipsing iron golem with epic dodge and conceal, that I will be posting on the forum soon and playing just because I want to see it in action!)
« Last Edit: 19 August 2020, 15:00 by bad_karma » Logged
bad_karma
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« Reply #3 on: 19 August 2020, 11:58 »

Oh and Firecracker, if you need some support with dev work, I can see if I can free up some time so we can look into a couple of topics together. It won't be much (think 1 or 2 evenings), but if you need the mental support and an extra pair of eyes going through the code, I think I can help.

Maybe some other topics to consider (although mainly meta-development I think):
- getting nwsync enabled on the server -> this could help get more new players onboarded
- getting some reliable auto-restart scripts working -> especially the crash that occurs when logging toons seems irrecoverable by the current restart scripts (according to Grey due to some pop-ups that get generated on his server that keep the process alive)
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GreyDeth
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« Reply #4 on: 19 August 2020, 12:23 »

I totally agree with bad_karma ...
despite the cool idea for these new races .. I think too that it will be a total rupture for our GvM mod
just too epic possibilities with these races compared with the ones we have now.
sorry MF  Kiss
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bad_karma
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« Reply #5 on: 19 August 2020, 14:58 »

Actually, Grey, I ended my post with an argument of why to _keep_ brownie and wemic races. So you may want to re-read that  Cool

[Grey here]
 Grin indeed I didnt read that part ... still am afraid all toons will be brownies and wemics soon ... but hey ... mod is almost solo mod nowadays anyway ... so what the heck  Tongue
« Last Edit: 19 August 2020, 22:38 by GreyDeth » Logged
-firecracker-
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« Reply #6 on: 19 August 2020, 19:13 »

With regards to the extra races, I do see the benefit of having them in because of just what bad_karma said about the mod and the old days, it might make things a little easier with the lighter player base and how the mod was originally developed. My only concern was weather it would kill of other builds.

The mod I guess is now the victim of its own past success, it was primarily developed as a team-based mod where groups of players banded together in order to tackle the toughest areas and bosses (or pvp related skirmishes). That was in a time when NWN online was extremely popular and the server was often quite full. As a result a lot of NPCs (not just the bosses) and areas were built in a way for team play rather than solo.

Yes there are areas/bosses that can be solo'd as not everyone wants to team up, but that does still leave a fair amount of the mod as inaccessible for the most part until those parties can be formed. If the Wemic/Brownie races helps to bridge that gap a little then I think I am happy to leave them in.

As well as that it does lead to a new range of build possibilities which can always freshen things up a little, like when we dropped alignment restrictions.

Oh and Firecracker, if you need some support with dev work, I can see if I can free up some time so we can look into a couple of topics together. It won't be much (think 1 or 2 evenings), but if you need the mental support and an extra pair of eyes going through the code, I think I can help.

Maybe some other topics to consider (although mainly meta-development I think):
- getting nwsync enabled on the server -> this could help get more new players onboarded
- getting some reliable auto-restart scripts working -> especially the crash that occurs when logging toons seems irrecoverable by the current restart scripts (according to Grey due to some pop-ups that get generated on his server that keep the process alive)

This is brilliant bad_karma and thank you. I have the running mod now so can start working on it. I go on holiday for a week on Saturday so won't be doing much before I return, but we can definitely get our heads together when I'm back and start to look at these things. If you want to fire me a PM with your email address we can address some things.

-fc-
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GreyDeth
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« Reply #7 on: 20 August 2020, 11:19 »

http://www.gondorvsmordor.com/gvm2/forum/index.php?topic=3378.msg15997#msg15997

"
some shapes are unarmed (like dragon) and for those shapes the ab seems to never "reset" in a round. All your attacks just get lower and lower ab. The fact that you have monk has nothing to do with it, because my toon didn't have any monk levels and still showed this behavior.
The shapes that _do_ carry weapons show no such issues

"

This one maybe also worth to adjust???
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bad_karma
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« Reply #8 on: 20 August 2020, 12:41 »

We could as a first step check what the ab degradation was if we load the module into a "normal" install of nwn (which i still have flying around somewhere). If the normal and EE versions behave differently, we can see if we can fix that. If not, then I propose we invest our time in other topics.
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-firecracker-
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« Reply #9 on: 20 August 2020, 23:30 »

Yep that's a good one, I'll add that to the list! I have the original NWN game and last version of the mod it was running so can soon spin up the old game to test that.
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bad_karma
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« Reply #10 on: 01 September 2020, 14:37 »

Something else I noticed recently while trying out some Wemic builds is that for some reason Wemics do not seem to benefit from palemaster ac bonuses. (bone skin)
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« Reply #11 on: 02 September 2020, 19:20 »

An increase in drop rate and to add nwsync would make a huge improvement to the mod. Will be fun to see it implemented  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: 11 September 2020, 21:19 »

Anyone checked this out? https://github.com/Beamdog/nwsync

I've tried using my android tablet, manually imported CEP files, and tried again with copying my PC files to the android but still says I'm missing a HAK file.. Not sure whats happening. I do know that the NWSync works to download files on other servers though. It will def make it easier for players to join the server
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« Reply #13 on: 12 September 2020, 10:34 »

Hey all - back from holiday and looking to start working on this next week Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: 12 September 2020, 12:39 »

Welcome Back m8   headbang
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-firecracker-
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« Reply #15 on: 05 October 2020, 21:11 »

Hi there

OK an update, I've got the increase drop rate mechanism working in the form of a multiplier that is applied to the drop rate chance calculation.

The base drop rate for a high level NPC (e.g. a boss) is currently 3.25% per item. What will happen when this update goes live is that the multiplier will be applied to that 3.25% to increase the chance of a drop per item.

I didn't really know how much to increase the drop rate by when the server is re-started (how long is a piece of string?) but I'm currently testing with a multiplier value of 3 initially. This means that a chance of a drop goes up to 9.75% per item which is a hefty increase.

This won't necessarily be the value I decide on (as I say I'm doing some testing) but any feedback is welcome.

There will also be a tool available for DMs to increase/decrease the multiplier value in-game.


Secondly I've checked the attack progression of monk shifters and they are behaving the same as the pre-EE version of the game so I'm leaving that one as is.

-fc-


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« Reply #16 on: 06 October 2020, 17:55 »

Good news !!
Well done m8 !
 headbang :pompom:
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« Reply #17 on: 08 October 2020, 07:50 »

Well done indeed! Will be fun to test out. Is the drop rate linked to the xp bonus?

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« Reply #18 on: 08 October 2020, 18:17 »

Hi all,

Exciting that the mod will get some TLC.  Thanks.  my 2 cents on the issues brought up..

Drop rate increase is great and really seems appropriate given the state of play vs. what was done in the past.  Most boss take downs are solo.  Bosses were made hard enough to beat 3-4 well built, well equipped, well played toons.  That doesn't happen any more.  Plus the player gear etc. was weakened a lot last wipe as well.  If we do get a boss down, I'd like to see drops often. 

Wemic and Brownie are definitely unbalanced against the other races.  THANK GOD!!!  Again, this mod was bent into a funny shape in order to make it harder for small groups of well built, well equipped, and WELL PLAYED toons.  Every time they figured out a way to beat a boss, the server gods became offended and put a few more weights on the scale.  Now the player base is gone and those of us that don't want to move on for whatever reason must fight gods with rubber mallets.  Please don't weaken them.

I asked a while back if we could implement a forge.  This would give players a reason to gather all that gold, explore all those places where they'll get beaten on, to study opponents and try to build a toon/equip combination to win out in a certain area.  I don't care about game balance as much as a reason to keep going.  I always wanted to explore the whole server, and be able to play through every bit of it.  It cant be done anymore.  Trying to bring down the power of some of the bosses seems like a big job, and I don't know how to give the players a better chance without it just being equipment.  A forge system gives the players the ability to use their noggins to try and build up to beat areas, instead of DM designed equipment being scattered across the game.  Seems an easier add than fixing all the rest.

My 2 cents....

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« Reply #19 on: 09 October 2020, 16:51 »

A little more forge food for fire.....

From firecracker back in 2015

"2. All that gold

Suggestion for a forge in MT and MM that for a large sum say 10 million gold can add +5 ac to any item or +5 ab to any weapon so some weapons and armors and boots etc become more useful and give us something to save up gold for. Many of these items are merely +4 but when crunching numbers for ab/ac or wanting to make that dagger with only sleep on hit +5 as well it would be worth it and give u a reason to save that gold up. If you wanted to take it further for 10-20 million add Keen to any item, +4 of an ability score to any item, or even +6ac for 30 million (with a maximum of only one upgrade for that item ever.

My response:
There was a decision a number of years ago by the DMs/Devs to tone the server down in terms of items and some NPC abilities as well as do a complete vault wipe to effectively 'start again'. Also back then it was possible to collect CE where by you could hand them into a DM and get custom items made (to an extent). It was decided that the new item set should consist of +4 weapons and +5 AC items as the norm, and +5 weapons and +6 AC or more would come from bosses or high level NPC drops. Also keen would not just be added to every weapon but be seen as a bonus, instead of the norm. So I guess this is a hard one to answer as it is the first steps back towards the old mod in terms of items. What do other people think?
"

How does the power of bosses/areas today compare to back then?  Player base?  There are bosses that are almost unhittable, are resistant to almost everything, and can one-punch any toon being played today.  But we don't have:
- all the weapons of old days are nerfed down and/or in the hands of unkillables (anyone kill the balrog or attack a city recently without hoards of 'the old stuff' that we cant access anymore?  Stuff that's in the hands of the cities or balrog?)
- damage resistance/reduction/immunity items were gatherable to protect against specific bosses and are all but gone today.  Few OK armors etc. left are class restricted to classes that cant solo and need to be support in a party.  there are no parties
- stackable damage shields and gear to bring discipline up enough to withstand some of the bosses or at least some of the time
- etc.......

Would love to hear someone say why a forge is a bad idea, or why it shouldn't be implemented.  Speaking for myself, a forge would unlock untold thousands of hours of play on this server, and I bet I'm not the only one. 
One great way to get party play to increase is to have more than one player on at a time.  A great way for that to happen is for players to spend more time on the server.  Hours of play to try and build up a forge item to build a toon to beat a boss will inevitably put more players online at the same time, where they may form parties and play together. 

We used to worry A LOT about fairness and keeping toons from being overpowered.  I think (am not sure as I wasn't part of the DM conversations) this had a lot to do with balance for PVP.  There is no PVP.  I posted a while back asking if anyone wanted to set a toon range, location, etc. for a bit of hunter-killer PVP fun.  Most everyone who is still playing actively expressed distaste for PVP.  I really only wanted to do PVP when I played years ago, even if I got wiped out by the vets who had tons of gear.  But I'd never attack one of the few remaining players left because I know they don't like it, and at this point don't expect to be attacked.  However, if more players played, and/or more players felt they could try and attack a city, maybe some PVP would come back?
« Last Edit: 09 October 2020, 17:17 by Clevar0ne » Logged
GreyDeth
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« Reply #20 on: 09 October 2020, 17:23 »

just 1 of my 2 cents about this forge.
In what way are bosses still interesting then?  .... cause now you have the possibility to forge the weapons/armor/other items? you so desperately wanted from a boss
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« Reply #21 on: 09 October 2020, 18:39 »

That's an easy one.
 
1) Reason we're playing and (hopefully) building items is to defeat the bosses.  They are the reason for it all.

2) Forges work on item value, and can/will be limited.  There won't be any 'on-hit nuclear bomb' items, but there will probably be a lot of 30/resistances, % resistances, etc. that are no longer in the game like they were.  And if you do get a good boss drop (with the class restrictions, etc.) you can build a toon around it and use the forge to help compensate.  The items made won't be more powerful than boss drops, but will be able to be specialized items to help in particular encounters.  

A forge won't load the server with god-like weapons, it will let players use creativity to beat overpowered foes.  
« Last Edit: 24 October 2020, 13:10 by Clevar0ne » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: 11 October 2020, 11:43 »

Aha
So Boss-items will keep their value because they are always better then forged-items .... OK interesting new gameplay then.



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-firecracker-
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« Reply #23 on: 15 October 2020, 18:26 »

Hey all

I've just emailed over the mod to Grey which has the updated drop rate mechanism in. So when he receives it and has time to swap it over, it will come into effect.

Grey, forgot to mention in the email - can you let me know when you have made the switch so I can update the official update threads that I use to track mod progress/version etc, thanks! Smiley

-fc-
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« Reply #24 on: 16 October 2020, 17:01 »

 happy1 eye frodo3 frodocape arwen2 orc nazgul cavetroll aragorn2 gimli
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