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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Future Talk (Moderator: Rade)  |  GS/TS...
Poll
Question: How do you think the new GvM should handle these?
Leave it like it is now. - 5 (27.8%)
Roll back to vanilla Bioware. - 3 (16.7%)
Have both durations rd/caster level - 3 (16.7%)
Or rd/2 caster levels. - 2 (11.1%)
Something else.  Please specify. - 5 (27.8%)
Total Voters: 18

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Author Topic: GS/TS...  (Read 15523 times)
ShinsFortress
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« on: 31 August 2008, 01:41 »

Discuss...
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pinkpuff
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« Reply #1 on: 31 August 2008, 02:00 »

1 round per 2 lvls for each would be good, make neither of them extendable. That would be more than enough.

All of the talk about revamping, and vault wiping, and everything else is rather silly.

I mean is it really worth ALL OF THE TROUBLE just to shift the balance of mage owns melee a little towards melee owns mage?

All I see are threads about nerfing mages and other things that aren't even nearly worth the time it would take to make happen.

Why should mages get nerfed so badly? Should they just cast a 9th lvl spell called Cripple and instantly be transported to the nearest wheelchair so the melees can take free shots or what?


The server will never be balanced, it just can't happen. You want to keep it from getting worse then stop allowing devs with no sense of balance to build and implement. I certainly don't see anything here about 70ab weaponmasters.
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Terrorble
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« Reply #2 on: 31 August 2008, 07:12 »

I voted something else of course.

I don't like that the only way to see GS is TS and the only people who have TS have GS (generally).  I don't like that essentially just mords disj is the only way to remove GS.  I know there are other ways but I can just walk away while you try that.  I dislike the mechanic that even if you use TS to see GS you often still can't do anything about it because you can't click on them.

Matter of opinion but GS is a lame way to initiate or hunt for PvP.  GS is a lame way to get out of PvP.  GS is almost required to last against some bosses (I concede that much).

If GS lasted 2-3 rounds I'd be fine. 

From a building perspective the default AI will reliably cast either SEE INVIS or TS if you give it to npcs.  The difference is that while a player is in GS the npc still generally can't figure out what to do so it doesn't matter if it can see you which again I don't like.

I might be semi-delusional but if GS really wasn't a big factor then we could remove perma-TS from everything and make bosses rely on casting SEE INVIS or using their SPOT/LISTEN skills and then SDs could potentially build for bosses too.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

That all said about GS, TS could basically stay how it is.  Still could last another round longer on items imo.
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Nobutadas
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« Reply #3 on: 31 August 2008, 15:04 »

GS should be able to be seen by see invisibility. I've had so many times people run away cause I was out of TS.
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WooldorSockbat
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« Reply #4 on: 31 August 2008, 15:16 »

Maybe is GS followed the same exit actions as hiding or concentration check for BBD it'd help make it less cheesy. That way nobody would cast or use items from GS... no running and buffing/healing.
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Abimael
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« Reply #5 on: 01 September 2008, 05:49 »

The only thing I'd change in GS is making it purely a defensive spell - in other words, you cant counter-spell and use it like it were invisibility, for the reasons Terrorble mentioned up there.

About TS, I'd remove the see hidden cretures feature (c'mon, the guy is supposed to be hidden by his skill, not by his magic), have normal duration, see invis & GS, and maybe spot/listen bonus to compensate it.
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Rade
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« Reply #6 on: 01 September 2008, 06:59 »

Just to extract the GS/TS ideas from topics that were and will not be posted:

I believe True Seeing should be removed from NPCs, dragons, wyrmlings, summons and familiars, and rakshasas.
The spell should be returned to its original duration of 1turn/level and have the effects of see invisibility, and +10 spot.
On appropriate NPCs it should be replaced with spot/listen bonuses and see invisibility as a scripted permanent effect (where necessary, not EVERY boss needs to have it). If absolutely necessary, then it could be applied, or the feat "Blindsight 60ft" be given instead.
On appropriate summons, familiars, and shifted shapes, it should be replaced with see invisibility and +10 spot - it is simple enough to add the spell "see invisibility" to the appropriate shapes and they will be able to cast it infinite times/day; scripting it as a permanent effect while in the appropriate shape is easy enough however.

I believe Greater Sanctuary should last a short time (1 round/2 caster levels) and have a few lines added in a spellhook so that if the last damager of the caster was a PC - the spell will not fire, this is in order to prevent PvP abuse. It would be nice to preserve offensive spells not being able to be cast from GS.
It was said that GS could still be abused in PvP by having an NPC attack the caster before fleeing from combat; which may be the case, but it will GREATLY decrease the chance of successfully casting GS in combat because even though the caster is being attacked by an NPC, there is nothing to say that the opponent PC will not land a hit before the spell is actually cast and therefore cancel it. Hopefully it will be enough incentive to not use it as a PvP escape.

There are some other abilities that would be effected by these changes. The first two that come to my mind are: ShadowDancer abuse and Time Stop replacing GS as a PvP escape for mages.
We've been playing with SD scripts to prevent abuse, hopefully it can be adapted depending on the severity of the abuse - although it would force players to adapt by adding more points to spot/listen.

For Time Stop, I would like to see it changed to a small radius effect that casts the spell "Flesh to Stone". Time Stop is a transmutation spell, so it could be focused in just like the Flesh to Stone spell and the property "immunity to spell: Flesh to Stone" would work against time stop if the change was properly written. The small radius is so that targets have to be close to the caster and the caster can't abuse a large range of NPCs/PCs.

So in summary: My vote is for "Other" ;)
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Snake
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« Reply #7 on: 01 September 2008, 07:02 »

I believe GS is the most retarded spell ever invented...and the person who thought of that spell should be shot in the kneecaps and thrown into a spikey pit to die
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{AR}Skeevie
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« Reply #8 on: 01 September 2008, 13:42 »

I believe GS is the most retarded spell ever invented...and the person who thought of that spell should be shot in the kneecaps and thrown into a spikey pit to die

Kneecaps, and wrists so he can't climb out. And make it an Ice pit so he slowely dies.
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Abimael
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« Reply #9 on: 01 September 2008, 15:14 »

I believe GS is the most retarded spell ever invented...and the person who thought of that spell should be shot in the kneecaps and thrown into a spikey pit to die

Someone's got frustated because his prey casted GS and ran away  Roll Eyes

BTW Rade, TS should see through GS at least. The rest is OK.
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KrazyKuban
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« Reply #10 on: 01 September 2008, 15:20 »

I happen to agree that GS should never have been created.  Sure, its a handy spell, and sure it helps in this situation or that situation.  But quite frankly, if there's going to be a general powering-down of the server's power level, then I say remove it entirely.  I've always been against people being able to solo bosses, regardless of whether or not I myself do it, or whatever.  Any relatively high-level boss should take a group or at the very least a pair of people to do.

As for "avoiding jerks"?  This is a PvP server.  Get over yourselves.  If you want to avoid PvP, I suggest you find another server.  IMHO what Rade's trying to do works more for PvP balance than anything we've done so far.  And to those that would say "well what about clerics"?  Keep in mind he mentioned that he would be starting from Wizards and moving reverse-alphabetically.  We haven't GOTTEN there yet you incorrigible pricks impatient asses whiners!

As I see it, this server's been on a steady decline for the last year or so.  And here comes someone trying to breathe life into it, and here we are bashing him his ideas and crying out nerf??  *edits out a few choice words*
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« Reply #11 on: 02 September 2008, 01:09 »

I think the last damage being done by a player hook could be troublesome especially if you get ambushed in a fairly tough area win the fight kill your opponent and try to gs raise them or gs run to area that you can rest in after they kill you and leave you debuffed with 1 hp.

 I don't like gs or the ethreal cloak in pvp all that much either I would script invis purge to break it that way any one can counter it with the dust of appearing 4 sale in the home cities.
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Redaurora
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« Reply #12 on: 04 October 2008, 14:08 »

I dislike the mechanic that even if you use TS to see GS you often still can't do anything about it because you can't click on them.

if GS really wasn't a big factor then we could remove perma-TS from everything and make bosses rely on casting SEE INVIS or using their SPOT/LISTEN skills and then SDs could potentially build for bosses too.



I don't understand this: your saying that bosses have ts because of gs, but they can't do anything anyway. gs would work basically the same whether a boss had ts or not.

so just get on with removing ts from all the bosses =p

note: maybe gs can have the same area restrictions that have been put on hips? The big issues with keeping gs on the server basically has been how much its needed in PvM areas, in pvp its (i think) generally not wanted.
« Last Edit: 04 October 2008, 14:12 by Redaurora » Logged
Terrorble
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« Reply #13 on: 06 October 2008, 05:25 »

Yeah I guess that doesn't make a lot of sense.

You're right, doesn't matter whether a boss has perma-TS since they just stand there even tho they can see you.

So it comes down to a decision about individual bosses.  Should they (the particular boss) be able to see everyone all the time or is it allowable for them to be occasionally vulnerable to people who can get enough hide/ms to beat their spot/listen or use invis (if the boss hasn't used its see invis/invis purge)?

I'd prefer to have many bosses rely on their spot/listen skills with keen sense or whether or not they cast see invis to detect attackers/runners rather than just automatically be able to see anyone without GS.  I may be wrong, but I think it would open lanes to the boss farming market for at least the HiPSters and the invis wand spammers.

So make GS 2-3 rounds, remove perma-TS from some/most bosses, and give them spot/listen skills, see invis/invis purge, and other spells like amplify, clairvoyance, etc and let them worry about guarding themselves.

Does that make more sense?  Do other people agree it's a better method or it just sounds good but isn't really any better?  Will it happen? ???
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Redaurora
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« Reply #14 on: 06 October 2008, 10:15 »

Im not sure which one it was, but i think if either spot beats hide or listen beats move silently but not the other then the spotter can see the target, but the target can still get sneak attacks and flanking bonus to hit etc. (meh on second thought seems kinda pointless imo)

Thats an idea.

Another is so hipsers can't spam hips in boss areas like they can't in the designated pvp areas, that would reduce abuse, and frankly is better than straight out nullifying hiding as it is atm. It basically gives them an escape and aggro dropping mechanism. (I don't really like this actually, not with how its currently implemented anyway)

The issue here if course is, the boss has to be able to kill the hipser if its alone, but its difficult to not go to the extremes, one extreme being the boss just sees the hipser all the time (As it is now) and the other extreme being the hipser can hide as he pleases.

For the record i believe all bosses should have perma see invisibility, or they cast it first thing at a nice high undispellable caster lvl (apparently temple guards cast UV that 38 caster lvls can't dispell). Or many hundreds of invis purge lolol.
« Last Edit: 06 October 2008, 10:50 by Redaurora » Logged
Rabbac
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« Reply #15 on: 06 October 2008, 10:25 »

At last, a vote  Grin too many things are decided by who shouts the loudest and who moans the most !!

Although not a fan of nerfing and not very happy when the changes to hips came in (or GS) i'm not pretty used to them. I do find it annoying that bosses tend to have ts and alot of hips builds become less useful after a certain lvl but then i can see the need. No TS and the SD's would have free reign on the server. As said previously though i think it would be fairer if most of the boss types relied on their spot/listen checks at least it gives hipsers a chance against them.

But again glad to see the vote system in place but i still think it would be of more use in-game as not everyone visits the forums..  Smiley
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Redaurora
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« Reply #16 on: 06 October 2008, 10:44 »

Yeah, I mean, the margin of having a balanced boss spot/listen versus hiper hide/ms is the problem here, there really isn't any way to get it right.

I mean, set it too high and it'll be just as if they had TS (no auto fail 1s on skill rolls)

and set it too low and it'll be as if they had nothing vs the inevitable builds customised for just that.
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Endlessorrow
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« Reply #17 on: 06 October 2008, 19:59 »

I liked the hps cooldown timer in boss area as a balance to that problem red... 

Another is to team the now trueseeingless bosses with some uber spot body guard or 2

Or terrobles idea to have them able to buff themselves with amplify ect...   

 Still as buggy as stealth and ai lock on are it wouldnt  help all that much with many bosses to remove the true seeing from them

The balrog of moria would remain unkillable by my rogue with or with out the ts,

 The main issue of this thread is a different matter gs and ts in pvp and how can we maybey improve it as it relates to pvp without crippling us in pvm.

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Rabbac
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« Reply #18 on: 07 October 2008, 11:27 »

These forums are turning into a continuous call to change everything wether it is areas, feats, skills,classes etc. Surely we have to face facts and admit that everything isnt going to be to everyones liking!

I play a few sd's and despite the already implemented changes still quite enjoy them but others just wont be happy until there is no point in having them. Yes hips is a very powerful skill if you dont have ts but then other classes have thier benefits or in some classes maybe not but surely the object and the simplicity of nwn is that combining classes to overcome the obstacles of the game!

Areas hard for some toons are easier for others and if you have played a while you know which toons to take where. As for PvP as a sd i hate clerics/mages and spotters but then they have ts and high spots just so that they can combat against my toon so i can hardly moan about it just like they cant moan when then dont have ts or spot!! They one thing i think would help with hips is to make it available at lvl 10 for sd's that means you have to commit 10 lvls at least to get it like pm's with immunities to crits. But then with all the spot items and ts availablity is there much point?

As for GS, what more do people want? The reason it was nerfed in the first place is because people where using it like HIPS and attacking from it, now they can get one hit on you and cant GS for an hour (game time) after and of course it used for escape like invisiblity and hips and as i use it mostly for resses when you dont want to fight everything on the way.

Will people ever stop complaining about the game mechanics? Some builds will always get owned by others, its just the way it is.. accept it, if you a sd you will own anyone without hips, if your opponent has hips then he owns you! If i see a mage with my sd i run  Grin Not too complicated is it  Evil
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Redaurora
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« Reply #19 on: 07 October 2008, 12:07 »

The pvp aspects and pvm aspects of gvm conflict when GS is discussed, the pvp wants it gone (As it should be) and the pvm wants it there (As it should be). anyone else see a small problem? =p
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« Reply #20 on: 08 October 2008, 19:51 »

These forums are turning into a continuous call to change everything wether it is areas, feats, skills,classes etc. Surely we have to face facts and admit that everything isnt going to be to everyones liking!

{snip}

Will people ever stop complaining about the game mechanics? Some builds will always get owned by others, its just the way it is.. accept it, if you a sd you will own anyone without hips, if your opponent has hips then he owns you! If i see a mage with my sd i run  Grin Not too complicated is it  Evil

I wholeheartedly agree with these statements. While I do like GvM, it does annoy me that the first answer to everything is "BALANCE!" "NERF!"
I honestly wouldn't mind if not a single thing was changed or nerfed on the server. (With the exception of Dev. Crit., which can be lame.)

NWN is a game engine based as accurately as possible off D&D. That is Dungeons and Dragons for anyone not familiar with the roots of the game they are playing here.
Everything is not fair in D&D. Yes, surprisingly enough, Mages/Spellcasters are -supposed- to be more powerful than Warriors and Rogues...it's freaking -magic-, people.  >_<
It isn't fair or balanced when someone brings a gun to a knife fight, but it happens.
In my opinion, Gygax and Arneson would not have created D&D this way if it was not the way it was meant to be.

Howwwever, with that aside...the NWN Aurora Toolset is in my opinion an amazing thing that not only allows people to create game worlds, but practically a whole new game in itself. This server is based off LotR, not a D&D campaign so...the complete transformation of every spell/feat/class into something different is perfectly acceptable I suppose.
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Redaurora
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« Reply #21 on: 09 October 2008, 00:27 »

IThis server is based off LotR, not a D&D campaign so...

Hmm? D&D isn't a setting its a series of rules used so players can interact with a story, its probably a good system to use for lotr, cept, you'd have to nerf mages till they could only cast shield and light. =p
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Ace-of-Spades
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« Reply #22 on: 09 October 2008, 03:13 »

Right, D&D is a set of rules, not a setting. Forgotten Realms would be a setting. THIS server is a Lord of the Rings setting, or perhaps Middle Earth; Third Age, setting if you please.

However, Campaigns...which follow the D&D rule set (d20, ~3.0 in this case), are called D&D Campaigns and or adventures.

Out of my entire post, that is what you chose to try and criticize?   laugh
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Redaurora
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« Reply #23 on: 09 October 2008, 09:43 »

As you say yourself and what i meant to say was, LotR IS a D&D campaign.

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612

 Tongue


What i mean to say is, nothing CAN be based off dnd, dnd is always based off something else, since dnd has no internal meaning in a story, its a completely meta set of rules.

Any other ruleset with a wide variety of rules would model forgotten realms as well as dnd would.

The reason im only nitpicking this part of your post is cause ive nothing to say about the rest, cept for dev crit, im fine with it.
« Last Edit: 09 October 2008, 09:49 by Redaurora » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: 09 October 2008, 18:36 »

Hm, thinking about it now, Devastating Critical can be lame I think, but then again maybe it was meant to be the counterbalance to ubar powerful mage/spellcaster types, I dunno.

Annnnyways, back to the topic of this thread...
Sorry for derailing.
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