GS/TS...

[Redaurora]

Dev crit, like everything else can be viable, servers which have it tend to have +2 or +3 or so +universal saves to most of the items, unless the build is specifically made to get dev crit dc has high as possible, most ppl would have to roll quite low to fail the save.

These types of servers tend to have no immunities no dr freedom etc, so you need nice high saves for things like death magic and domination powers, death magic is still useful, cause it always has a chance to work, but its generally a 5% chance.

And just like anything else, if you focus too much on one thing (dev crit dc here) you generally become quite vulnerable to others.

On these kinds of servers dev isn't really that powerful cause theres lots of other things that can do the same thing but in GvM all of those things are eleminated by immunities, ergo dev crit looks even more powerful/useful. Simply, with GvMs itemisation, dev is too powerful. So no, imo its no good on GvM.

[Kermit]

Idea 1) Can you make everywhere a GS null zone- except the PC vs NPC areas that require using it ?

Idea 2) Or have a timer that keeps you from immediately using it again like Hips does? (I know- this geeked out GS b4)

Idea 3) Check out 3 Towns- they have a once per rest use on invis, imp invis and GS. Cant spam what can only be used once per rest.

Idea 4) Make GS a spell that when cast keeps you from casting agressive spells for its duration the same as Timestop?


That leaves TS- duration should be a bit longer. Not much. But it should be that the 3 castings from the helmet should last at least as long as the rest timer does. And that would include casting time. Gives you a bit more time to locate and attack at least once of those three castings.

[pinkpuff]

I have to ask.

What is so wrong with GS that would make such nerfing necessary?

[Redaurora]

Because its generally too good at what it does, nothing else in the game can really match its potency.

cept when it buggs out >.>


and id just like to point out that theres no such thing as greater sanc in dnd, totally an nwn thing. keke

[Lief]

Howdy all,

GS (and etherealness) can be altered to keep the PvMers and PvPers both happy. The compromise is to return to the core principles, from my perspective, of these two spells. Their SOLE purpose, imo, is for DEFENSIVE use. However, toons such as Cloud Strife and Rapture, as I hear, like to use them offensively. Since it is legal, there is no problem. Nevertheless, I would like to see them changed so as to prevent their use, offensively. The changes, noted below, should not unduly burden the PvMers.

Comments:

1. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Etherealness
“An ethereal creature can't affect the Material Plane, not even magically.”

As I understand, when X uses etherealness in PvP, X can dmg an opponent, but the opponent can NOT attack X. Although we are in M.E. and not M.P., I don’t think that the benefits of etherealness should be retained when you are in melee combat. I also think that you should lose these benefits when you start doing any other offensive action, e.g. casting offensive spells or singing a curse song.

Having said this, I would like you to keep the same principal in mind regarding etherealness when you think about GS.

2. Attack bonus is lowered by 100 for ONE ROUND from the moment GS (and etherrealness) is/are broken. This is to prevent its/their use for offensive purposes, cf. timestop allusion by Kermit.

3. Spellcraft is lowered by 100 to prevent counterspelling from GS (Abimael);

4. WooldorSockbat's idea about requiring a conc check to use items while in etherrealness seems tempting, but I think that one should be able to do defensive things, e.g. heal and do non-offensive buffing up (e.g. prayer spell near an opponent would break your GS/etherrealness). In fact, requiring a conc check would hurt PvMers more than it would help to solve the PvP related problems with GS.

5. I don’t agree about the idea of a GS timer. It would hurt PvMers more than it would help even the playing field for PvPers. And equally important, since HIPS timer doesn’t work since people can keep spamming HIPS, I reckon that a GS timer wouldn’t either.



True seeing
I don’t know what all the fuss is about bosses having TS. If you can’t solo a boss, then bring some friends. If a posse can’t kill him, then bring your friends and some non-friends. No boss should be able to stand up against 28 level 40s, imo. Simple.

Except for an argument about duration, I like how TS beats GS and spot beats hide and listen beats move silently. (And Mordor disj beats TS (and GS)). And yes, I like the fact that if you don't have TS or spot or listen native-ly, then you have to rely on short acting TS granting items or unequip and re-equip spotting/listening gear.

However, it would be cool if TS allows someone to target and attack someone in GS or etherealness since one can’t do so atm. As someone said, it is odd that you can only target the ground and not the target that is hiding in GS. 




gauntlet fighters are not unbalanced
Continuing with Ace-of-Spades's comment about (non)fairness in DnD as it applies to NWN, I want to declare that mages still rule the world. Nauneu/40/mage and Icy/30/druid and Druss/30/grunt fought Droppi/39/gauntlet fighter and Grok.Urinitus/40/gauntlet fighter-rdd. The event occurred in the corner near the transition point to Rath Dinen Street and I believe only two gondor knight NPCs were involved. Although it was 3 PC + 2 NPC vs. 2 gauntlet fighters, there was not even a contest with the mage hampering and handicapping the two mords and the two player gonds doing lots of dmg, although the knights got in occasional hits too. Annyway, it was all over in about 3 minutes.

However, if someone were to try TO MELEE a gauntlet fighter WITHOUT mage or other non-mage assistance, then yes, I agree that the gauntlet fighter is insanely uber. But, if you consider that fighters are uber grunts (without a wpn multipier, nor increased crit threat range), then this seems to be a natural state of affairs, yeah?

paper ... rock ... scissor

Incidentally, the only class to which the paper/rock/scissor analogy does not apply is the cleric. They are BOTH rock and scissor. Divine power (and other buffs) gives them the AB and attack schedule of a fighter and they have healing spells, GS, TS, haste, and offensive spells like WoF and harm. The only thing they can't do is hips, I guess. Oh wait, they can attack from out of GS. Nope, they are paper, rock AND scissor.



Cheers,


Lief

[pinkpuff]

Cloud Strife is no longer a cleric/bard/pm, he underwent a magical change and became a gauntlet fighter.

And Rapture is a paladin, with no items that cast gs/ethereal or scrolls.

Your example vs Droppi and Zev conveniently left out the part where Droppi died to a Marksmen. Without npc intervention you would have been owned (errr, forced to run). Safe to say Zev only died due to overwhelming numbers.

Anytime you can get 70 static ab its going to be overpowered.

As with mages there are items in the mod that grant immunity to every cleric spell that matters, and how many items cast Spell Mantles? How many items cast a dispel that strips clerics? I dont recall seeing any items that cast interposing hand or anything of that nature to hinder a gauntlet fighter.


Bottom line is that adding more and more scripts, especially the unnecessary ones being mentioned, does nothing but add more and more lag. Only a small handful of players ever abused it to begin with, and when it comes down to it I see no difference in casting GS to heal and rebuff vs running away and doing the same thing.

[Snake]

Re: GS/TS...

They both need to die

[KrazyKuban]

Mmm, good to see nothing has changed.  I personally would love it if the Devs told you all to piss off and did whatever the heck they wanted to, only asking for opinions on specific things they happen to want input on.

...At least then these forums would be more direct with the whining/complaining/b****ing/moaning instead of sticking it between "actual discussion"

[Rabbac]

Mmm, good to see nothing has changed.  I personally would love it if the Devs told you all to piss off and did whatever the heck they wanted to, only asking for opinions on specific things they happen to want input on.

...At least then these forums would be more direct with the whining/complaining/b****ing/moaning instead of sticking it between "actual discussion"

Well said KK

[Kermit]

per caster level is moronic- I have a helmet that casts ts 3x/day and an ammy that casts 5x/day. I also have an item that casts GS 1/day.

So placing these items on a fighter/wm/rogue = 1 round. Another fine imballance toward the already uber caster. May as well just bring back Dev Crit to ballance it out. (joke/sarcasm)

How about a Minoote (spelled that way so you dont pronounce it minute) increase in time. Flat rate to make it equal and ballanced? Like 10 seconds. And nerf extentded so it isnt extended. Flat time rate.

If you are going to tie it to rd/lv then make it rd/ALL lvs. So a lv1 anything gets 1 rd of ts/gs and a lv 40 gets 40 rounds (or what ever the set number of rounds limit will be) And if possible, 1 rd extra for extended? or as I said before- no extending TS/GS

[ShinsFortress]

How are casters so uber when there are so many items with immunities around and builds that capitalise on them?

[Kermit]

How are casters so uber when there are so many items with immunities around and builds that capitalise on them?

Mords disjunction- your screwed.

GS - make it like Timestop- no agressive action can be taken til it wears off.

TS - make it last so that 3 castings make it to the end of the rest timer for everyone.

[Redaurora]

Disj doesn't remove item immunities.

If your character has:
-evasion
-scrolls of ele shield
-some bludg dr
-ele dr
-immune to igms/ilms
-immune fear
-immune death
-immune bigbies
-half decent saves
-flesh to stone immune
-freedom

just add horrids immune to that (the only thing really missing), and any mage will be tearing their hair out trying to hurt u.

almost ANYBODY can do this, while to make melee that ineffective, you need sky high disp and epic dr items dr feats and to be a PM.

just to note, most of the immunities above arn't hard to get, and some you'll get without even realising it (they are *that* cheap).

[Abimael]

I'll add to Red's the fact that u could use spell mantle's scrolls to counter horrid and there are several items that give shadow shield. If you stack 3 pos thinkings, you are almost certain to make the mage lose all 9th and 8th spells by repeatdly using 'em. The scrolls aren't possible now that scrolls aren't sold anymore.

Well, you got the point. It's fairly easy to immunize against a mage.

[Redaurora]

Yeah, spell mantle scrolls and spell breach scrolls are sold in cities, but i didn't mention that cause it just gets silly. it ends up being the one with the most carrying capacity lol

besides.. spell mantle doesn't stop everything 

[Rabbac]

I agree mages have thier benefits and if your not prepared for them there a handful but the only spells they tend to use are horrids, icestorms and igms and with plenty of items with negative energy protection and an ice cloak and spell gaurd its only thier shields you have to get past... even most of the npcs have protection against those spells ..

Personally i love my mage though and shields are great (with a ton of heals) and i like to just gs and dominate things.. 

[Kermit]

Have you actually tried using scrolls lately? Even a Ressurect scroll used from UMD can smack you back.

[Rade]

This has just become a useless rant right now. You've stopped talking about GS/TS and I would ask you to read the Rules/Guidelines post of this section again just because you're teetering over the delete button. It might be re-opened later, so if you have exceptional ideas that need to be said on the topic PM me.