Class: Fighters

[Rade]

I can't help but post this one. Screw the reverse-alphabetical order because only a select few understood what I meant anyways.

Alright, the idea behind buffing weaker/underused classes is to give players more variety.
Right now there is an item for fighters, it grants +1 AB/[fighter level over 16] or something like that; I've never used the item myself because I don't care to, so if you know the exact number and feel like posting it be my guest - all I care is that you can easily reach the +20 AB cap using this ring and 32 fighter levels.
A fair idea, but it only encourages 1 build that seems to be tailored for this ring: Fighter 32/Weaponmaster 7/rogue 1 with access to any item it wants and ~70 AB.
This isn't really all that balanced nor does it encourage fighters as a viable class for more than 1 purpose.

Current state of the server aside, let me show you how I define balance:
Fighters in LotR are basically grunts and soldiers, nobody wants to play the standard grunt who is meant to die in 1 swing by an orc and be forgotten. So when we picture fighters, let's try and picture the guys you remember, the Gimli's, the Boromir's, the commanders of battle.
What I propose is that fighter be given a set of script-based tools gained as they progress in fighter levels. They are designed to control combat, assist a party, and some are PvP or PvM oriented.

Mark of the Warrior: (Requires level 4 fighter)
A fighter Marks a target for himself and his allies, directing their attention towards it.
The target of the Mark is painted red and given a penalty to hide and move silently for a duration of 1 round/[2 fighter levels]; the penalty is -1/[2 fighter levels].

Taunt of the Warrior: (Requires level 8 fighter)
It is hard to ignore a warrior, harder still when his attention is on you.
The target of the Taunt must roll (1d20 + discipline) versus (the fighter's discipline + his levels spent in fighter); if failed the target gains -1 AB/[8 levels of fighter] for 1 round/[2 fighter levels] and is forced to attack the fighter.
A PC targeted by the Taunt will undergo the same effects, but they will be able to cancel the forced attack; NPCs may cancel if a script tells them to do otherwise (example: always attack the target with the lowest AC).

Sacrifice of the Commander: (Requires level 12 fighter)
A valiant commander sacrifices himself for his allies for he recognizes that alone he is nothing, but together wars are won.
For the duration of 1 round/[4 levels of fighter] the fighter is immobilized (cannot move, cannot fight, cannot heal; setcommandable is FALSE) as he channels his life force. His target is set as a plot creature (takes 0 damage) for 1 round/[6 fighter levels] (important distinction of 1/6 rounds while he is down for 1/4!). The fighter suffers 20 magical damage every round, and is still vulnerable to attack; once the time has expired he regains mobility and stops receiving magical damage; the target is no longer plot.
(If it proves to be buggy, some adjustments can be made; such as not setting the target PC to a plot character, but instead making them heal the damage they have just received - I choose to keep with plot character for now because it allows them to be protected at near death; if a target PC say had 10 hit points and was hit for 15 damage he would die and thus not be able to heal the damage he was just dealt; if he did not receive damage in the first place, he can be protected at near death)

Sunder Armor: (Requires level 16 fighter)
The combat experience of the fighter allows him to recognize weak points in a target's armor. His allies become aware of the weakness and are happy to exploit it.
The target it painted yellow and loses -1 Armor Bonus/[4 levels of fighter] for 1 turn/[4 levels of fighter].
Sunder Weapon: (Requires level 16 fighter)
The combat experience of the fighter allows him to recognize the weakness of a target's weapon. His allies become aware of the weakness and are happy to exploit it.
The target it painted yellow and loses -1 Attack Bonus/[4 levels of fighter] for 1 turn/[4 levels of fighter].

-----------------------
I think I'll leave it right there for now, I believe the general sense is given. There are other abilities that could be added; say sacrifice 100 HP and give 100 HP to an ally; take away half the fighter's HP and take away a quarter of the target's; give a target 75% spell failure while immobilizing the fighter for the same duration; etc. Basically going for party-based abilities to encourage the use of fighters in a party and encouraging part-play for big events/bosses.

[Endlessorrow]

Current item is warriors signet ring. It is plu1 ab lvl of ftr over 20.
The ab bonus dose not stack with any other   bless aid prayer bard song ect. it only stacks with wep bonus.
 So you use a ring slot typically sacrificing either a couple ac or elemental dr   and you must have 35 ftr lvls and a plus 5 wep  to reach the 20 magic ab boost .....................

 I don't see why some people hate on this item but part of it seems to be that they lack full info on its abilities and limitations I personally think its a great item  and a good chalenge to get it in the first place....... 

 I have helped several peeps to get the ring if you need help let me know.

[pinkpuff]

The ring is +1ab/disc for every fighter level over 20, and it DOES stack with any other ab bonus up to the maximum of +20.

The problem is that a 32ftr/7wm/1rogue gets 70ab with max str and can get 73 thru use of aid/bless/bardsong/whatever. That is a ton of static ab.

Think about a ftr34/paladin4/rogue2. Again, about 70-71 static ab with divine might/shield so ac can get into the high 70's if hasted. Don't think that maybe thats a bit much? Ever tried to resist a 70ab kd or disarm?

Then there is the boss problem. Since that is more than enough ab to hit most bosses it would become an issue. The dev who introduced the ftr ring is also the one who likes to secretly upgrade bosses to thwart specific people/builds, don't think it wouldn't happen again.


Screw the vault wipe and all the changes, the answer is preventive maintenance and it should have started long ago. How things like that are ever allowed into the mod to begin with is beyond me.

[{AR}Skeevie]

This ring is way much, high 70's ab buffed? That's crazy. And all you need is an okay bard? So a fighter and a bard could hit ANYTHING. That's a little stupid, don't you think?

[KrazyKuban]

On the bardsong note - I have the 70AB build and bardsong does nothing for its AB.

[Abimael]

What is the AC of the 70 ab build?

[KrazyKuban]

If you're a dexer, you can easily get over 80 AC(although I haven't personally tested this)

My STR build gets mid-70's with Improved Expertise(at 60 AB)

[{AR}Skeevie]

Hmm, but other buffs could get it up more. ex. Aid, and stuff like that. As Supa said.

[Abimael]

Ok, if my calculation is correct, and considering +8 gear:

10 base
8+8 from heavy armor
3+8 from tower shield
8 from ring
8 from natural ac
4 from boots
1 from dex bonus
1 from dodge feat
8 from tumble
2 from armor skin
________________
=69 AC

WIth haste, 73 ac

Which is a pretty good AC for a pure fighter, along with 70 ab, but not uber, and with the drawnback that it doesnt get a good haste.

There are cleric builds out there that can reach about 65 ab and with better ac, like cleric pms and cleric/rdds, with the addition of spellcasting abilities and unblockable damage. Bards builds can get lower ab but with normal song they can have +5 AC and +2 ab, with curse song adding another virtual +5 plus the taunt for further +6 ab. These builds also can cast improved haste that lasts longer and are almost undispellable in a melee fight.

Dex based trades about 13 physical damage for a huge boost in AC, and in that case it might be even better than the str option depending on the weapon used.

Correct me with any infomation that I haven't wrote here, but I don't see how overpowered this ring can be. It powered up the fighter class but the other options still seem better to me. The main advantage I see is that it doesnt rely on buffs, which is perfect to storm area infested with enemies with dispelling capabilities.

[Terrorble]

Very cool ideas, really bring out the fighter's position as the commander/leader/captain...

If you have a party and one person is a dedicated SD spotter it does nothing for the rest of the party in helping them also see the SD.  A fact that has always bugged me.  I mean, if I could see them I could tell my fellows where he is too.  In game terms that would be a large hide penalty to the SD.  Mark of the Warrior is the first idea I've ever seen along these lines.

[Rade]

So anyways, back on track. The items I outlined above for fighters are all 1 use/day, non-transferable, and you would 'learn' them from an NPC for a medium-to-large sum of gold.
The idea I'm trying to go with here is that a character that has great benefit for a party, but is fairly hard to make. Hard work, big payoff. Any thoughts on this? Or you just want to keep blabbering about a ring (if it was a shield or helmet or armor, something I can't easily swap in-and-out of during combat and also have a second slot to use for the vitals like spidersilk, then I might understand how it could be balanced)? If you do want to continue discussion on this ring, please open a separate topic in the GvM1 Player's Forum where it is important to the CURRENT module.

Edit: Thank you Terrorble

[ollebroc]

One COULD get those AC numbers listed above, BUT there is a down-side.
Which ring did your remove? The AC ring or the one that saves you from certain types of attacks!! 

[WooldorSockbat]

Fighter is a class that isn't all out terrible, it just has no use after 6 or so levels (because you don't need that many feats). Start giving it minor bonuses at maybe level 10 or 12.

I'd love to see a fighter with enough levels get permahaste. Let's face it, if you're taking a bunch of levels of fighter, you won't have enough levels in a caster class for haste. Those silly boots only give you a minute - that'd hardly long enough to last half way through a fight in upper levels. Besides... how often do you get dispelled right before (or during) a fight...

[sestitodc]

If you're a dexer, you can easily get over 80 AC(although I haven't personally tested this)

My STR build gets mid-70's with Improved Expertise(at 60 AB)

Yeah, Nobu and I both made a Fighter33/HS5/SD2. Don't remember the exact stats, but a perma 73ish ab, and a high 80some ac with HS pot (don't remember the ac, haven't logged on in awhile  )

[pinkpuff]

Ok, if my calculation is correct, and considering +8 gear:

10 base
8+8 from heavy armor
3+8 from tower shield
8 from ring
8 from natural ac
4 from boots
1 from dex bonus
1 from dodge feat
8 from tumble
2 from armor skin
________________
=69 AC

WIth haste, 73 ac

Which is a pretty good AC for a pure fighter, along with 70 ab, but not uber, and with the drawnback that it doesnt get a good haste.

There are cleric builds out there that can reach about 65 ab and with better ac, like cleric pms and cleric/rdds, with the addition of spellcasting abilities and unblockable damage. Bards builds can get lower ab but with normal song they can have +5 AC and +2 ab, with curse song adding another virtual +5 plus the taunt for further +6 ab. These builds also can cast improved haste that lasts longer and are almost undispellable in a melee fight.

Dex based trades about 13 physical damage for a huge boost in AC, and in that case it might be even better than the str option depending on the weapon used.

Correct me with any infomation that I haven't wrote here, but I don't see how overpowered this ring can be. It powered up the fighter class but the other options still seem better to me. The main advantage I see is that it doesnt rely on buffs, which is perfect to storm area infested with enemies with dispelling capabilities.

So make a ftr34/pal4/rog2 with Divine Might/Shield.

Add 8 ac from Divine Shield and another 5 expertise. Dropping the ab DOWN to 66 or so from expertise means little. You don't think 66ab/85ish ac is a bit much? OR 90ac if you can still hit with 61ab.

And by the way there is an item that grants +4 dodge ac, +6 constitution, and casts an instantaneous 15 round haste 3/day. By instantaneous I mean there is no item use and it takes 0 time, can even use it while shifted.

[Nobutadas]

but it's only 3 times per day. can't just switch it either and use it.  + it doesn't last that long. the haste that is.

[Abimael]

If you're talking about absolute AC/ab, then yes, I agree with you that this is outstanding. But taking that build has some drawbacks.

For example, you'll lose item versatility because you'll have to wear items to get the +12 cha bonus to get the +8 since you can't cast Eagle's Esplendor. An option could be wearing a cape +8 with an item with +4 cha, so now you'll lose at least 2 item slots to get the bonus. Also, as Olle pointed out above, you already lost 1 ring slot to get the ab bonus.

On a personal note, I think that divine might with shield with less than 10 cha bonus is troublesome. Taking  Extra turning feat to get more uses helps, but I think it will last too little so you'll have to renew the casting often and pay more attention to see when it wears off.

... instantaneous 15 round haste 3/day. By instantaneous I mean there is no item use and it takes 0 time, can even use it while shifted.

I didn't quite understood this one. Do you mean you don't have to equip it or that it has unlimited uses /day?

[Nobutadas]

and it's not as amazing as you think either. I have no heal skill because I need the disipline and other skills, I have no way to see invisibility except for the amy which barely lasts enough time, I've got enough haste on me to run around the upper beholders area once before I have to rest, doesn't seem that long, and I still die in pvp. build one first before you say how amazing it is. there are so many better builds out there.

[ollebroc]

The fighter build above is still weak against Hipsters. A Hipsing/AA will do the macarena around you while using you for a pin cushion. Use any TS item and they'll run around til it wears off, which is bout the same time as thier hipsing timer. All that AC doesn't matter to them. Could get a lucky hit in.

I have taken this build into Barad Dur. While I was to hit everything, just couldn't take a hit. A good Tank, a wizard, and one of these fighters is all you need there. More helps. 

[pinkpuff]

Nobu u have no see invis because u have no umd, the build I mentioned and the 32ftr/7wm.1rog variant does as well.

and Olle, with 70+ab all it takes is one kd to end the fight, and the dex hipser will not resist it.

Abimael, there are TONS of items that cast eagles splendor or more importantly Greater Eagles Splendor, and don't require umd.

[KrazyKuban]

Hmm, I guess none of you read Rade's post about taking that particular line of discussion to another topic, eh?  Oh well...

Anywho, I like the ideas about making a fighter more party based.  I've been DMing a PnP group lately and I really miss how Fighters used to be the "tanks" in regular DnD.  Now, I know NWN is nothing like PnP because its designed for a single-player game, etc, but it wouldn't be bad idea to give them abilities like these that would make them more worthwhile for a group to promote party play(as opposed to just pumping up their AB and calling it a day)

[pinkpuff]

Really when it comes down to it there are only a handful of classes that really benefit from having 25+ lvls of the same class, the casters and say wm.

Fighter, like monk, rogue, and at times bard is really just a filler class that gets you some extra abilities fast and allows you to meet the prerequisites for the class that you really want to focus in.

I honestly don't see much if any need to boost fighter at all. Maybe the mark of the warrior thing but other than that it seems pointless. If you want to pump up a melee class then give the WM's +2 ab every 3 lvls after 10 instead of 1. OR maybe +2ab every 4 lvls. At least that way they can still get high 60's ab and actually keep in line with the whole "master" of a weapon that is part of weaponmaster. Allowing a fighter to get 8 more ab with no wm lvls is silly to say the least.

[Rade]

I'm surprised the 2nd paragraph has generated most of the discussion; probably because it is a hit-or-miss opinion and most people get bored of reading at that point  . Consider all future posts in this topic on the gauntlet reward to be deleted without second though; if included in a useful post it will be edited out - as I stated above, if you really want to discuss it create a separate topic.


The fighter suggestion isn't really about boosting the fighter's AB; if they wanted to do that they should, like pinkpuff says, pursue other means like WeaponMaster.
The idea of boosting the fighter and having it get even better at higher levels (not once did I suggest boosting AB abilities mind you; they all lower AC or AB, grant protections or health, etc etc) was to, as I stated, make a party-useful build. Alone a high level fighter would be a decent melee, but added to a party he could hopefully be even better.

There are other avenues that could be explored if we wanted to make a fighter work for these skills instead of just being gifted abilities. We could base it off unused skills like: all channeling abilities like the "Sacrifice of the Commander" are based off a successful Appraise check, all melee-reducing abilities like Sunder Armor/Weapon and Mark of the Warrior are based off a successful Parry check, all taunting or shouting abilities like Taunt of the Warrior are based off a successful Bluff check; etc.

The nail was hit on the head with the "Fighter, like monk, rogue, and at times bard [...]" sentence; they are just filers so it gives us room to add more useful abilities to it that provide another build option and hopefully increases diversity. That's why I suggested it, and because it seems fitting to go with a warrior/commander type beyond the 5 levels of PDK.

[Redaurora]

Mark of the warrior is eliminated by a single item with hide/ms boosts, youd want more like -50.

I don't see the point of it tho, seeing chugging a potion would remove the negative effects.

with sacrifice of the commander and healing damage, just heal the damage before it is taken.

Unless nw script doesn't allow u to preempt damage >.>

[Kermit]

If you're talking about absolute AC/ab, then yes, I agree with you that this is outstanding. But taking that build has some drawbacks.

For example, you'll lose item versatility because you'll have to wear items to get the +12 cha bonus to get the +8 since you can't cast Eagle's Esplendor. An option could be wearing a cape +8 with an item with +4 cha, so now you'll lose at least 2 item slots to get the bonus. Also, as Olle pointed out above, you already lost 1 ring slot to get the ab bonus.

On a personal note, I think that divine might with shield with less than 10 cha bonus is troublesome. Taking  Extra turning feat to get more uses helps, but I think it will last too little so you'll have to renew the casting often and pay more attention to see when it wears off.

I didn't quite understood this one. Do you mean you don't have to equip it or that it has unlimited uses /day?

Using items- The charm you get in Caras casts greater eagles splendor 3x/day-
Just for buffs- (and bear with my memory for names)
Positive thinking
Eagles charm(? not sure the name- its sold in Caras)
Petrified sheild(gr Stoneskin)
Fire ring (Flame weapon and whatever the ghostly visage is)
decoder ring or drow helm (lesser or regular mind blank)
invis ring or ghost sash
undertakers ring
beholders signet ring(see invis)
Warriors belt (greater bulls)
bah- you get the idea- there are enough items after hasting to get the +12 on nearly everything if you have your fighting gear set right. And some of the spells last a LONG time- Bulls, Eagles, the Ioune stones, flame on the weapon. Set the ones that last a long time to be cast first. Now you dont have to make such drastic choices for what you are going to use for regular battle gear.

You should see Aahz's inventory. I dont get to keep much in the way of drops for cash anymore.