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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Future Talk (Moderator: Rade)  |  Class: Blackguards
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Author Topic: Class: Blackguards  (Read 7335 times)
Rade
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« on: 02 September 2008, 01:22 »

Ooooh woe is the state of blackguards in Neverwinter Nights. I'd like to beef them up a little, not in the sense that you might be thinking, not because I play Mordor mostly, and also in accordance with the former idea of forcing alignments.

Aig't. So the eternal blackguard VS paladin & Champion of Torm dilemma. Well let's briefly discuss the advantages of each:

Paladin:
Spells like aid/bless/prayer/divine favor all add a fair bit of AB and some irresistible damage that a blackguard cannot get unless he multi-classes with cleric.
Abilities like Lay on Hands, Remove disease, and fear/disease immunity allow the paladin to heal himself and have free immunity to certain monster abilities.
Feats like Divine Grace that a paladin gets sooner than a blackguard allow for some quick multiclass bonuses (a sorc 29/paladin 1/PM 10 is better than a sorc 28/BG 2/PM 10 by 3 feats: 1 bonus from level 29 sorc, power attack and cleave)
Paladins are a base class, not a prestige class (so a player could be a paladin 32/WM 7/rogue 1 if they wanted, but not a Blackguard 30/WM 7/rogue 3 or something)
The big wallop: Holy Sword, even after the change

Now these are all great paladin abilities, I don't mind having them in the game at all, but they're just in-contrast to Blackguards, okay? I don't want to change these. MAKE sure you understand that before I continue!

Champion of Torm:
A bonus feat every 2 levels like a fighter, but it continues with +1 to saves and the smite evil ability is not reduced in power; as a result Champions of Torm can get a more powerful smite through epic bonus feats.
Divine Wrath grants +3 AB, divine damage (irresistible mind you), 5/+1 DR for 1 round/charisma bonus; the +3 AB and saves become +5 at level 10 CoT.

Also great Champion abilities, don't change 'em.

Blackguards:
They have spell-like abilities such as inflict serious or critical wounds, contagion, bull's strength, and 2 summon spells. The summons have been improved a little, but not the other spells, I also believe that the epic blackguard summon is seriously buggy in that he either spends all his time casting before he dies, or kills himself, or both - I forget which.
Gets access to Sneak Attack.
Only class that can smite good.
Does eventually get Dark Blessing at level 2.
Requires cleave and +5 hide; so you can take 1 monk level or spend 2 feats to get the cleave requirement.
Is a prestige class.


So that's the situation.  Cry I'll mostly leave Champions of Torm out of this however, because I believe they are more opposite to Assassins than Blackguards.

Okay, so the simplest solution that I've thought-through many times and heard from others even more: Blackguards should get (Un)Holy Sword. It occurred to me instead that I don't want to put another onhit-dispell weapon out there because there are enough complaints about it already.

Here's what I would do to blackguards to balance them with the above.  nazgul

I picture blackguards as being an extreme evil; so much so that they draw the attention of even darker powers than themselves. This does not necessarily make the blackguard strong himself, but he has devious friends indeed.
For our blackguard-editing benefit (and assassins btw) bioware has separate spell IDs for blackguard inflicts, bull's strength, and summons; which is great because we can edit those without effecting the normal spells!

First, the experimental change: Edit the server's CLS_FEAT_BLKGRD file to make FEAT_PRESTIGE_DARK_BLESSING granted on level 1 instead of level 2, like paladins.

Second, change Bull's Strength: The blackguard (or his target) gains attack bonus and a bit of magical damage.
+3AB +1 AB/[3 Blackguard levels] to a maximum of +5 and +2 negative damage/[3 BG levels] to a maximum of +10 for 1 round/Blackguard level. Increase the uses/day to 2 (done in feats.2da)

Third, change Inflict Serious Wounds: The blackguard casts a spell that will heal (hit charisma modifier multiplied by his blackguard level) to himself, or a target undead/outsider; if targeted otherwise the spell will act as normal.

Fourth, change Inflict Critical Wounds: The blackguard grants +2 saving throw bonus and +2 magical damage/[3 Blackguard levels] to a maximum of +10 to a target undead/outsider for 1 round/charisma modifier;  if targeted otherwise the spell will act as normal.

Fifth, change Contagion: The blackguard grants his charisma modifier in dodge AC to a target undead/outsider to a maximum of +10 for 1 round/[charisma modifier], and maybe a negative energy damage shield to that target like Unholy Aura for the same duration;  if targeted otherwise the spell will act as normal.

Sixth, improve the summons; especially the epic vrock feat summon. These feats should not have spells, except the epic vrock summon which should be a Balrog that can cast (Un)Holy Sword on it's weapon once/day; this way they will attack, I think they should also be scripted to attack hostile Good-aligned targets first. It'd be easy enough to make these fairly good, and you can make it look awesome - a nice balor: Black model with a scythe  Cool

So you'll notice that a lot of the blackguards' abilities are now geared towards summoning and buffing/preserving those summons. Having a companion improves the blackguard's chances of getting to use his sneak attack abilities, and I believe it is more fitting for balancing VS paladins than having another holy sword on the market.
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ShinsFortress
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« Reply #1 on: 02 September 2008, 14:31 »

Why do things have to have equal opposites ?  This isn't Newton here.  Not saying that Rade is doing just that here, but I have seen such.

Blackguards are prestige classes, so should not be seen as simply anti-Paladins.  Thus, they will "get things like Divine blah-blah later than a Paladin".

Q:  If you're successful in making blackguards more greared towards "summoning and buffing/preserving those summons", wouldn't that be balancing them more vs Druids and Rangers?

My take on them is rather opposite to Rade's.  I think they *should* be compared to Champions of Torm.  Rogues and Assassins are for sneak type attacks.  I feel blackguards should be more martial.  To me, the very name "blackguard" implies a brutal warrior, the very antithesis of sneak attacks.
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« Reply #2 on: 02 September 2008, 16:23 »

My blackguard who gets the epic summon right now has a decent summon that I have also wished would be a balrog on gvm. Im not sure what the bugs are that you are talking about except he has lowish ab and ac and is vulnrable to crits.... he casts about 8 spells before he starts mele with his 52 or so buffed ab. so hes not a great summon like the mummy was but he can be useful in some areas...... Hardly worth the nescasarry 14 bg lvls the feat cost to get the summon  and the sacrifices needed to get there from a power building perspective.

  So I have thought about it as well   and i like your ideas rade and wouldn't be disappointed to see them implemented for gvm at all but here were my ideas for the bg class.


Bulls str.... the nicest part about a bgs bulls str is it stacks with other bulls str spells I Thought of adding a aura of battle tide effect for the duration.... very similar to your idea rade.

inflict serious wounds= A lay on hands ability dealing bg. lvl x1 + cha mod. bad streff damage.

inflict critical wounds= A lay on hands ability dealing bg. lvl x2 + cha mod bad streff damage.

I picked bad streff because in my tool set it is irresistible to all but bad streff dr. and there is none on the server....  divine would be ok i guess as a substitute.

Contagion  Replicete lvl3 druid spell infestation of maggots  dc= bg. lvl +10 + cha modifier. I love that spell it is a very wicked spell as well...

Smite Good,  Since it can never equal the non prestige smite evil of paladins I thought smite good could deal a extra 1x bg lvl divine or bad streff damage adding a non physical non resistable damage component to compensate.


 So I guess my bg Ideas are of helping the bg out in dealing some non resistable damage  as a theme and yours are themed towards being a conduit of Sauron by increasing his servants power...








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ollebroc
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« Reply #3 on: 02 September 2008, 16:53 »

I like Blackguards and would like to add to thier repetoire', but now that Pallies are weaker, your gonna have to rethink all this.  Cry
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« Reply #4 on: 02 September 2008, 18:23 »

Why do things have to have equal opposites ?  This isn't Newton here.  Not saying that Rade is doing just that here, but I have seen such.
[...]
Q:  If you're successful in making blackguards more greared towards "summoning and buffing/preserving those summons", wouldn't that be balancing them more vs Druids and Rangers?

My take on them is rather opposite to Rade's.  I think they *should* be compared to Champions of Torm.  Rogues and Assassins are for sneak type attacks.  I feel blackguards should be more martial.  To me, the very name "blackguard" implies a brutal warrior, the very antithesis of sneak attacks.
Not sure I follow here Shins. First you say that I'm not doing equal-opposites, and then you say that I'm doing equal-opposites with druids and rangers? And then you say they should be opposites with CoT?  huh Please explain because I'm very confused and want to understand what you mean.

As far as Rogues/Assassins (and SDs I guess) being sneak type attacks, absolutely; but you don't see an alignment restriction on rogues. You do see an alignment restriction on Assassins, and an alignment restriction on CoTs; why can't the guardian of light be enemies with the stealthy backstabber? I also say their opposite because in general an assassin has hide and move silently as skills, whereas the Champion of Torm is one of the few fighter classes with listen and spot access (others are Weapon Masters and Rangers; and I guess RDD too, but they're 3/4 BAB).

Sneak attacks don't always imply stealth either. A target that is disabled or knocked down is vulnerable to sneak attacks; or if he's silly enough to focus his attention on something other than the dirty-black knight.

I like Blackguards and would like to add to thier repetoire', but now that Pallies are weaker, your gonna have to rethink all this.  Cry
Not really. The only thing paladins lost was Holy Avenger being a guaranteed dispell; they also gained a horse, which you were kind enough to add for Blackguards as well. For those that don't know, paladins still have the spell Holy Sword, but it only works some % of the time whereas before it would work every hit. In my proposal the only thing with a Holy Avenger-like ability is the Epic Fiendish Servant summon, which could be removed with no real loss to the Blackguard.


My blackguard who gets the epic summon right now has a decent summon that I have also wished would be a balrog on gvm. Im not sure what the bugs are that you are talking about except he has lowish ab and ac and is vulnrable to crits.... he casts about 8 spells before he starts mele with his 52 or so buffed ab. so hes not a great summon like the mummy was but he can be useful in some areas...... Hardly worth the nescasarry 14 bg lvls the feat cost to get the summon  and the sacrifices needed to get there from a power building perspective.

Maybe my memory is failing, but I went ahead and built a blackguard along with wrath_of_grapes after the new summon was released (just to see if it was worth it). I remember him telling me that it would sit there casting spells until it died. So thank you for clearing that up.

Bulls str.... the nicest part about a bgs bulls str is it stacks with other bulls str spells I Thought of adding a aura of battle tide effect for the duration.... very similar to your idea rade.

I'd rather not use aura of battle tide, since the aura is rather buggy and often lags behind your character. I guess keeping the bull's strength because it stacks is useful, the proposed change could be downpowered 1-2 AB and also grant bull's strength.



Now, it was mentioned that the current summon is not as powerful as say, the summoned mummy warrior. What do y'all think would be balanced stats for the regular fiend, epic fiend, and undead, considering the spells a blackguard could add to them and a lower magic level than current? With the current magic level?
« Last Edit: 03 September 2008, 01:34 by Rade » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: 02 September 2008, 20:42 »

The BG Inflict abilities should be damage to a target by touch.

Inflict Serious wounds should be 2 negative per bg lvl and Inflict Critical should be 3 negative per level.

The ideal Epic Summon should be a lvl 20ish bard/tank(lvl 30ish overall) with Lasting Inspiration and only enough perform for about lvl 12-13 song, whatver lvl it is that gives you 2ac that way it isn't crazy overpowered. My reasoning for this is that a blackguard isn't a solo hero like a paladin, they are evil jerkoffs and gain morale by having numbers and fiendish forces behind them. Make the summon a weak bard with lasting insp for a little rp value and make it a decent tank so the bg can actually get some sneak attacks in before it dies.

I like the idea of the bulls str being changed to something that is at least remotely close to divine favor. Speaking of which, can't you just allow the BG to cast Divine Favor at whatever his current lvl is 2/day?
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« Reply #6 on: 03 September 2008, 00:20 »

"equal opposites" is not the same as "balancing vs".  More semantics than anything else.  Don't worry about that.

My main point that I think Blackguards should not be sneak attackers, still stands.  Regardless of how you choose to explain what a "sneak attack" actually translates to in game, I still don't feel that it 'fits'.  After all, the phrase "sneack attack" is being used.  Not something like "crippling blow" or whatever.
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« Reply #7 on: 03 September 2008, 02:16 »

As Shins and Olle pointed out, blackguard isn't so sucky in relation to other classes. Paladin isn't that great. Admittedly, a Paladin is much more at home on a horse than a BG, so maybe the BG should trade in the horse for something different.

Blackguard monk is a mean combination. Blackguard gets full ab, sneak attack, and can go divine might... and basically all of the BG prereqs are taken care of with 8 monk levels. Given, monks are horrible on GvM in just about every way. But if anyone were to ever try a good non-dragon monk, BG would be among the best routes.
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« Reply #8 on: 03 September 2008, 04:50 »

I have dedicated a lot of time to figure out how to make BG builds work.  I like the class very much but one fact remains, as you take more levels it doesn't really pay off (not just true for BGs but they are the current topic).

Rade I definitely like the focus on the summon and powering it with the BG spells.  Anyway around it, adding some AB/level benefit to BG bulls str is good.  It could be higher when applied to the summon (whatever, a thought). 

I am hoping we can agree on something as far as what the spell effects can be soon.  As long as they are somewhat helpful and not just a waste of time updating them into the running mod and turning this into present talk could be quick.
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« Reply #9 on: 03 September 2008, 05:06 »

How about Bull Strength working like a Divine Favor, but with unlimited ab/dmg bonus and lasting for a longer time like 10 minutes? So a lvl 30 BG would get +10 ab/dmg for 10 minutes, following the 1 ab/ 3 BG levels rule.

Also, there are interesting builds with BG out there, but none of them get past 4, where you get the last good benefit from it.

And yes, pallies are good. BTW, I didnt know HA casted all the times it hits. Actually, I thought it was 33% chance of striking a full dispel since I've never saw it working at all strikes. And if 15% chance is a server change, I didnt like it. Too low since in many melee battles hitting is a big problem.
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Rade
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« Reply #10 on: 03 September 2008, 06:01 »

Oops... I accidentally deleted the wrong post. It was the one I did, something along the lines of:

The reason I think the bull's strength should be +3 +1AB/[3 Blackguard levels] and +2 negative/[3 blackguard levels] capped at +3 +5 AB and +10 damage and not just "divine favor" was so that it could be cast on the blackguard's summon as well.

Now in light of Abimael's post: I don't think that leaving it for a long duration and unlimited ab/dmg bonus is such a good idea. The average buffing fighter (using a class like ranger or paladin) doesn't get above +8 AB (+11 with Champion of Torm and divine wrath, +13 at level 10 CoT) and a paladin's divine favor damage of +5 magical at level 15 (+3 divine with CoT). Their buffs also don't last very long. This was more of a direct balance just for gondor-to-mordor fairness. I wouldn't like to see Blackguards as the new clerics with long lasting +20 AB, because keep in mind that the AB from the bull's strength buff could be combined with aid/bless/bardsong/etc.

And I'm not really sure what % HA dispells on; it was a bioware change and not a module change (Holy Avenger is hard-coded) they changed it to whatever it's supposed to be, which might be 33% I don't remember.
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« Reply #11 on: 03 September 2008, 06:04 »

The Dispel from the HA is now capped at level 10. Which means you might get lucky to strip the buffs from items only.

What you can do is change the spell-ability feats to whatever and the summons. What you can't do is give the BG new feats. You have to work with what he has.
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« Reply #12 on: 03 September 2008, 06:08 »

I'm actually not sure about that... I think you could give him new feats via the same method I outlined above when moving Dark Blessing from level 2 to level 1, but I think the players might need to have that .2da placed in their override folder, which wouldn't be pleasant for new players.
But I don't want to add or take away feats, only change spells.

The dispell from HA, that seems lower than the original plan for editing it... are you sure? If so, the BG epic fiend should definitely not have HA.
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« Reply #13 on: 03 September 2008, 06:29 »

One thing we don't want to get into is having everyone download haks other than CEP. Adding feats would mean such a thing.

Yes the HA is now that low. Tested by many. I've seen many Mords over the weekend get hit by HA weapons, they were only getting stripped from the archers arrows. Not one comeplete de-Buff.
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« Reply #14 on: 03 September 2008, 14:10 »

Bah how sad, Bioware destroyed one of the features that made paladins very interesting. How can one play an Inquisitor with a weapon that dispels nothing? Really, silly change.

Anyway, back with the topic. I made some thought abou the unlimited ab bonus d favor idea, and I made a bard with +9 ab bonus and -6 curse song, so maybe it would get too overpowered indeed.

An alternative could be 1 ab/4 bg levels, so only at 20 he could get +5 ab bonus and leaving 20 other levels to class combinations. If he decides to spellcast he won't good t the point where he is resistant to dispelling, and the bard option will be stuck at lvl 20 bard song
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« Reply #15 on: 03 September 2008, 20:20 »

Now I think you'll understand me poking fun at the Druid's friend Pally in that other thread.

Rade, I like your original idea for bulls str.  A few detail things I would do.  Add CHA modifier to round/BGlevel duration of the AB/DMG bonus effects with a 10round min.  I'd like to see the STR increase effect stay at hour/level.

I'm in favor of a slower progression to the +5ab/+10dmg cap.  Get there by level 20 instead of 15 and count by 1's for ab.
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« Reply #16 on: 03 September 2008, 22:41 »

Now I think you'll understand me poking fun at the Druid's friend Pally in that other thread.

What thread? Gimme a link, I'm a lazy boy Tongue

Sorry to steal the thread again Rade, but I took a look at the detailed change on 1.69 patch notes:
"
- Fixed the caster level being used for Holy Avengers (it is now always set
   to 10 as it is cast from an item, rather than using the player's paladin
   caster level).
"
So we got 2 interpretations here: they could be refering to the spell Holy Sword or to the Item Property Holy Avenger. I'm concerned about the Spell Holy Swordr: does its dispelling capabilities increase with each paladin level, working like a Mordenkainneins Disjunction, or is it stuck at working like a Dispel Magic level 10?

Edit: the spell name is Holy Sword
« Last Edit: 03 September 2008, 22:48 by Abimael » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: 04 September 2008, 00:12 »

HA from the Wiki: The dispel check's caster level is 10.
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« Reply #18 on: 04 September 2008, 00:24 »

HA from the Wiki: The dispel check's caster level is 10.
So this limitation applies to the spell Holy Sword then?
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« Reply #19 on: 04 September 2008, 05:59 »

In this thread
http://www.gondorvsmordor.com/gvm2/forum/index.php?topic=307.0
pretty sure you saw it.

Carry on
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