Anyone else think having horses suck?

[nexus9000]

Personally, I'm sure this will cause controversy, but I think horses should be completely removed.  Here's why:

1)  If you don't use a horse, you are at a huge disadvantage.  Especially at lower levels.  With all the additions a character gets from the horse, it becomes very difficult for one without a horse to compete against one with a horse.

2)  Not all character classes can effectively use a horse.  Shifters, for example, can't shift while mounted.  So, what do you do if you are traveling along on your trusty steed and you run into someone from the other faction?  I can see it now:

"Oh!  Excuse me, let me get off of my horse."  *seconds go by while the one player dismounts*  "Why thank you for being so understanding."

NOT!

Not only that, go back to point #1 and you have a shifter competing against someone with a horse when they can't possibly use one.

3)  There are classes that benefited from everyone else not having increases speed.  In fact, it seems to me that horses violate a basic tenant of the server - no perma speed increase (not just no perma haste).  If that weren't so, we'd have boots that had permanent Expeditious Retreat on them.  Mages are particularly impacted by this since the advantage of having a haste spell was having it last a lot longer.  Now you have something everyone can use which, while not quite as fast, still goes quite a ways towards negating that advantage.  Couple that with such an incredibly short duration for Forceful Hand, you can forget playing mages at lower levels for PvP.

4)  They are kludgy.  I couldn't even get the damn thing to go across the narrow part of the Morgul bridge.  And navigating across the bridge near Edoras was even worse.

5)  While it makes leveling easier for lower levels, I completely fail to understand why a first level character should have such an increase in abilities for riding a horse!  The thing to do is just buy a horse and fight stuff that's outside!  Forget the crypts, forget Kell, forget, Shagluks.  Just buy a horse and go out to the higher levels areas.  You'll get much better xp and you'll still be able to compete.  From a game perspective, I don't think that makes sense.


So, I'd like to see the horses go away.  While it seemed like a good idea, I just don't think they work very well on this server.

[pinkpuff]

I personally have never had any use for horses.

[ollebroc]

Ever see a Dragon ride a horse?!? 

[Endlessorrow]

I think you pointed out the good tactics of fighting a horse rider while dismounted.....    Hit the narow bridges and  gates and fire away from the other side.....   or hit a indoor zone forcing the poor mele grunt to dismount so you can cheese away with bigbies or shape shift or whatever cheese you prefer, which restores the advantage to you.

 My lvl 17 or so mage just slaughtered a group of low 20s some of whom were on horseback none of whom had flesh to stone immunity
   

[Abimael]

Oh horses are just soooo cool. The main problem I see is that they are slower at entering melee fights and can get buggy because of the space they take, but they are definetly worth it, specially because you can achieve +20 dodge ac bonus cap, which is just lovely since I wont need to cast divine shield anymore with my paladin.

Edit:
But I agree that, to take full advantage of it, you must either take the paladin/bg path, which is not easy at all.

Edit 2:
Thats why you can't enter closed areas with a horse. Originally horses could be used everywhere, but if it were implemented here everyone would run around with a horse when farming, and that would change power balance. Don't worry about it, no horse characters are still very important.

[nexus9000]

Oh horses are just soooo cool. The main problem I see is that they are slower at entering melee fights and can get buggy because of the space they take, but they are definetly worth it, specially because you can achieve +20 dodge ac bonus cap, which is just lovely since I wont need to cast divine shield anymore with my paladin.

I think you are proving my point here.  Simply by riding a horse you no longer have to use what I would consider to be an integral ability of being a paladin - divine shield.  That really doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Schoorl]

Hmm well honestly I have to agree with nexus on this one. The horses are just too good. They add 170 hp ac and a bonus to movement speed. Okay the bonus to movement is not so weird to understand, but the hp is weird, I mean I  ain’t killing the horse first I am just killing that guy. If I remember well enough the warg riders spawn an angry warg if they died… or was that somewhere else? anyway, perhaps we could get angry horses.. or just wandering horses i mean they are dumb creatures. or so I like to believe

The ac I don’t like either, well it is kind of logical he is higher perhaps a bit harder to hit if you are using a one handed weapon.  But then again at low levels it’s too much too soon. I say if it is possible that the bonuses should only happen if you got enough riding skills. Just try to ride a horse your first time without any training, I doubt it would make you harder to hit.

So what I am saying is I kinda like them but I think they only should give you bonuses if you got the skills for it. Well exception on movement speed, if you lose control they won’t slow down ;)
I would like to see them somewhat nerved but if that ain’t possible well get rid of them honestly.
and if you are desperate to keep the movement increase, you can always add those boots nexus was talking about.

[Rade]

Personally my hatred of horses comes from the lag associated with them. They also ruined low level PvP (ever sit there with a med-high AB toon, with taunt skill, hacking away at another player and still only getting hits in on 20s?).
I wish they could be reworked, especially if there was less gold on the server. Say, if there was a "horse whistle" or something you could buy for a TON of gold (talking 1 million-ish for the Black Mail Horse or whatever it is right now) and then summon 1/day with the whistle. I believe the laggy item that bogs down logins and shifters called PC properties, exists for the main purpose of storing information while riding a horse (or something to that effect, I haven't bothered to look at it thoroughly; all I know is that we never needed it before horses!), and that could be stored on the "horse whistle" instead so that only players who wanted to ride experienced the lag.

People seem to want to keep them, but I could see the bonus HP and bonus AC getting adjusted by making the benefits heavily dependent on ride skill (say +10% movement speed +10 HP and +1 AC for every 10 ranks in ride skill [Capped at +40% speed +40 HP and +4 AC, so it's lower than haste]).
Also, like with abilities such as expertise; I think there could be a penalty associated while on a horse. Horses can kick, they can jump, they don't always listen - especially to an inexperienced rider.
So I think 45% spell failure and -6 AB aren't so unrealistic; they could also be reduced -10% spell failure and +1 AB for every 10 ride skill (makes sense, doesn't it?) capped at 5% spell failure and -2 AB.

In regards to dragons riding horses: Of course not. But how about Azers, Risen Lords, Medusas, and other humanoid shapes? Not that I'm suggesting that's a good idea, but shifters doesn't always mean dragon.

As far as "good tactics of fighting a horse rider while dismounted" goes; Endlessorrow's narrow-crossing idea relies heavily on 3 things: 1) They are not competent enough to force the horse across, which you can do. 2) You have ranged capabilities. 3) The horse rider is stupid enough to sit there and take it instead of running in the opposite direction.

So in short: I think horses suck too nexus9000. They may look nice, but they don't add much else to the game.

EDIT: added the comment about penalties while riding.

[ollebroc]

I don't know which version you read or saw, but horses played a significant role in LOTR.

p.s. Even if we did remove the horses, it's impossible to remove the PC Properties Skin from the game.

[Schoorl]

i don't know what you are reading ollebroc, but i didn't see annone saying they aren't part of lotr.
perhaps i overlooked it, the fact in this topic is that they just give a to great a boost for this server..
and as you might have noticed, most of the sugestions do keep the horses in the server but just downgrades them a bit

[Abimael]

I think you are proving my point here.  Simply by riding a horse you no longer have to use what I would consider to be an integral ability of being a paladin - divine shield.  That really doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Then why paladins have "summon horse" feature? Just to show off to people who have to buy one? "hahaah you died, you lost your mount! I can use a horse whenever I want and you can't! Oh wait, my horse is also 10 times better than yours! Loser!" >>'

Besides, D Shield is hardly an integral ability for a paladin. It is a feat that suits them very well, but you could, for example, build a pal/wm/rog without any cha just to use ha  - which reminds me that the only reason one could play a pally was because of this now worthess spell.

If you remove horses, you'll probably kill paladins for good and also bgs - although the last one is almost never played anyway.

[pinkpuff]

And here I thought the point of a Paladin was to use their godly favor (Divine Might/shield, Smite) to destroy evil.

Guess i missed the part where they were supposed to be horse masters...

[HazMatt]

I dunno.  I don't mind the horses too much.  Having a horse should give you an advantage and sounds like that's what NWN horses do.  I don't think the increased HP should be part of it (cause it just doesn't make sense) and the AC could be brought down, but I like the idea of having the option to use a horse.

Personally, I don't think I'll use 'em cause I am so used to hoofing it on foot, but I may try 'em out some day.

Bottom line for me, horses ADD to the game.  If it's too powerful, perhaps we can dial it down but I'd be sad to see 'em go now even if I don't use them.

[Kermit]

Increased AC, HP, and perma haste( oh and on top ot the added ac, even tho you dont get to go faster from added haste, it still adds an additional 4 to your ac to cast haste). So when is perma haste coming for the whole mod? 

Seriously tho-all this and the fact that I think it causes lag is a good reason not to have them. The only reason I ever have used them is to get somewhere far in a hurry. They are truely a PITA.

[Abimael]

And here I thought the point of a Paladin was to use their godly favor (Divine Might/shield, Smite) to destroy evil.

Guess i missed the part where they were supposed to be horse masters...

I used the word "hardly" because anything a paladin can do, a cleric can do better. They have more spells, better buffs, haste, ts, and so on. Prior to 1.69, the only reason one would make a paladin was because of ha, which is now a worthless spell. Why would one make a paladin now that ha is useless? The horse, thats why. Paladin's horse have the best ac, speed and hp of all (maybe bg is even better), making that role the only one worth for a pally imo.

About the lag, well, if it is about server connection problems then you might have a point. For me, since I changed my computer 1 month ago I haven't had anymore problems with it.

[pinkpuff]

Smite.

Done deal, enough said.

[Lief]

Howdy all,

I talked to schoorl about this. I like the horses. Here are some of my thoughts: 

1. nexus: "Not only that, go back to point #1 and you have a shifter competing against someone with a horse when they can't possibly use one."

From your statement, it seems that you think that there should be a level playing field regarding horses. But, the purpose of riding a horse to get some PvP benefit. Yes, this by extension penalizes certain builds because they SHOULD not (rather than CAN not) use a horse, whether they are a shifter or an SD. Your argument relates fundamentally to the build of the non-horse rider and not to whether the horse is uber or not.

And why should you feel compelled to ride a horse? Matt refuses. An SD or a shifter shouldn't ride a horse either for reasons already noted. Do Matt, the SD and shifters have to deal with one more challenge when confronted with a horseman, you ask. Yes. And so? Get some friends and form squares when Abimael’s cataphract charges – laugh-  But, since Turril’s server can’t handle 500 players, which is the minimum number needed to form a square according to Wikipedia, you’ll just have to travel in groups and not solo – and do the best you can.

Extrapolating from this point, I think that toons, as explained below, should NOT be able to use horses equally - full stop. And so, if you put 1 skill point in ride, should you be able to get the same benefits of using a horse as someone else who put in 15 points or 40 points? No. That's what build skill/judgment is all about. Deciding whether A is better than B if you get advantage X, but suffer disadvantage Y. It’s the rock, paper and scissor game!



2. The perma-expeditious retreat effect from the horse is certainly a huge PvP advantage, but as pointed out by endless, there is a huge risk to getting slowed down or "stuck," whether on a tile, on a door or etc, or getting pinned against a corner. Indeed, a horse and rider that have been pinned against a corner are quite vulnerable. I saw many riders get killed, whether Gondor or Mordor, when they were pinned against a corner on the "island" that is in the middle of the Osg map.

In addition, maneuvering the horse is not easy in certain terrain, as endless noted, which can be a disadvantage. Often times, you have to use the letter-key to move, rather than the mouse, because of the less than ideal pathfinding function. This is true when crossing the middle of the osg map, the terraced hill tiles in eastermet south/west bank/east bank/westermet, the river that can only be crossed via ramps (e.g. eastermet north) and etc. Knowing this, one just has to pick the terrain well, whether for an offensive or defensive pvp action!

On the other hand, I realize that the above two disadvantages (stuck/pinned and maneuvering) are not going to outweigh the benefits gained by the rider from being on a horse, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles . . . (but see my suggestion below).



3. I don't understand the interplay between the ride skill (+5 ride = +1 ac, potentially), the +20 dodge ac cap and the divine shield feat and thus I cannot comment on this.



4. Rade's idea for linking the benefits of the horse to the ride skill is good, but it should be limited. This presumes that horses presently do NOT have their movement speed and ac linked to the ride skill; taking a guess here, I think that the ac is already linked to the ride skills, but movement is not. Having said this, ride skills should be linked to both the movement bonus and the ac bonus. I don't like the idea of just being able to buy a horse with higher ac, but slower speed or a horse with lower ac, but faster speed - or somewher in the middle on both counts. The latter sounds logical, but it lessens the impact of the build skill of the player, i.e. how many PRECIOUS points did you invest in the ride skill? (Grunt classes tend to have few skill points.) For the same reason, I agree that the ac bonus from the horse should be linked to the amount of your ride skill.



5. two balancing modification to horses and their availability:
   (a) Hit points:
The increase to HP, which seems to be fixed (but I could be wrong), is, however, unbalancing. Schoorl quotes 170 hp, but I think I saw a pally with a horse that gave him/her/it 200 HP or it could have been 230 HP. As a percentage, this could be 75 to 125% of the toon's own HPs. That's too much, I agree.

Having said this, I would be in favor of making this either a flat percentage of the rider's HP or a flat percentage that increases as the rider gains levels. This would mean that having a barbarian, rather than a wizard and a high con modifier, rather than a low one would make sense --- i.e. promote build skills. So, the HP of the horse =
   (i) flat 25% of the rider's HP
or
   (ii) for example, until level 10, flat 10%, then until level 20, flat 20%, then until level 30, flat 30% and flat 40% until you hit levl 40.
 
As noted above, I do not favor linking the HP benefits of the horse to the ride skill level, but rather to the total character level of the toon. 


   (b) Availability:
It might make horses less uber for lower level toons by doing one thing. DMs should remove the horse merchant in Eru's lounge, where it is so easy to get horse - even for a level 1 toon. They should then place horse merchants in harad central and edoras respectively. In this way, lowby toons would have to run a gauntlet to reach the horse merchant. Besides being dangerous for lowbies, it would be a huge a hassle. BGs and paladins of course still have their summon mount feat, which I frankly like (in agreement with Abimael).

Also, lowby twinks can lie in wait for the non-pally/BGs to come get their horses. 

[Terrorble]

I've hardly used a horse.  I haven't been able to work in the RIDE skill or mounted combat into anything yet.  I need some info.

What AC do they add (is it dodge or natural and how much is possible) and how does that whole mechanic work again?

Without mounted combat they get a -2 melee attack bonus right?

The bonus HP does seem excessive, especially at low levels.  HP gain based on total level would work better.

Nexus, you said under point #1 "Especially at lower levels.  With all the additions a characters gets from the horse, it becomes very difficult for one without a horse to compete against one with a horse."
Can you list out the "all" for me just so I'm clear please.

What are the differences between the Pally/BG horses and the regular ones?

P.S.
working on a better HA alternative (I hope it works) and while smite has its uses, smiter pallys aren't that great just to play.  and of course lief would want a place that lowbie twinks could ambush the seekers of equine 

[ollebroc]

The horses and mounted feats info can be found in the GvM Wiki. 

[Abimael]

Smite.

Done deal, enough said.

*sigh* Someone here must have shed tears of joy with 1.69 ha nerf. I don't know about you, but I hardly see smiters running around in Gondor's side. Maybe its because they have about 1 minute and a half of usefulness and 3 strikes. "Hey guys, you need help? There... 2000 damage done! I'm good, ain't I? Oh, you want to kill more monsters? Wait about 6 more minutes so I can rest ok? Zzzzzzz... oh, you already did it? Damn why haven't you waited for me!"


About the horse bonuses:
*AC natural bonus of half the horse's ac
*Horse hp is added on the top of the char hp
*Mounted Combat feat: Dodge AC bonus of (1d20 + (Ride-10))/5 per round
*Mounted Archery feat: Reduces Archery ab penalty of -4 while mounted of -4 to -2

Normal horses: the better ac ones have lesser movement rate, and the faster ones have lesser ac bonus

Pally and BG horses have maximum speed and Natural AC improves with levels. Bgs horses are also better than pally horses

Lief, Divine Shield and Mounted Combat stack, but at lvl 40 you should get about 8-12 Dodge AC bonus from Mounted Combat, making Divine Shield almost useless. This is good because, as anyone that ever tried making Divine Shield/Might toons noticed, you have to cast it often and if you don't take Extra Turning you'll probably run out of charges on longer fights. Without Divine Shield, your char will probably die very quickly.

Edit: about the other ideas:

I can agree with you Rade about tying the horse bonuses to the character's ride skill, but I don't liked your first suggestion. I think the horse's should be faster than haste, and they shouldn't give penalties to ab. You are virtually removing them without really removing them.

IMO, the only thing that doesn't make much sense to me is the huge HP bonus. In my point of view the horse also becomes an weak point to the rider - imagine a knight falling off his horse when it takes an arrow on its head at full speed. But then, this is just my opinion.

[Kermit]

I have 0 skill points in Rdie and get an AC boost- I will have to check to be sure but I think Buckley is getting a +4.

No... I dont think having horses sucks. I think it totally sucks. That +4 AC moves many toons that can barely compete to the "cannot compete" category. The only thing they should be allowed to be used for is the perma speed to get to remote locations faster. Having them be a factor in AC, HP and AB is a ballance issue after nerfing so many items is a fall back not a step forward. Over powered is overpowered wether its an Accu, FoN or a horse.

[pinkpuff]

I don't see many points made in this thread that even come close to validating the need for horses.

One person says that without Holy Avenger paladins are unplayable and that once Divine Shield runs out they are useless. Stop and think about ALL of the other benefits that a paladin gets, all of them. Then realize that when Divine Shield runs out they suddenly become just like every other melee. It's hard to believe that anyone who plays 90% paladins thinks they are weak. Saying something like that makes the person seem like either a bad liar or just plain bipolar. Before 1.69 HA was the only reason YOU would make a paladin, not anyone else.

And then we have someone saying that horses shouldn't be used by a Shadowdancer or a Shifter. Why not? When  you shift the armor/weapon and everything else merges, why not the damn horse too? A Shadowdancer can hide in the middle of a open road in the daylight, why can't he disappear from the back of a horse?


Terrorble, once per round your character makes a skill check vs Ride and for every 5 points of the check you gain 1 Dodge AC for that round. So at lvl 40 with 43 ride skill points and a single point from a dex bonus you are GUARANTEED 9 ac, just for being lazy and being on a horse.

I don't think it is remotely fair. If any class can summon to them 200-300 hitpoints and 9+ac then EVERY class should be able to do it.

[charliebuckett]

I rather liked having 79 ac at level 25...whats wrong with that???? 

[nexus9000]

I don't think it is remotely fair. If any class can summon to them 200-300 hitpoints and 9+ac then EVERY class should be able to do it.

Exactly!!!

[pinkpuff]

Nothing, absolutely nothing