Ballance? Another Mords have it easier thread

[Kermit]

Time and time again I have been bashed for this comment. Gonds can lv up faster, yada yada yada. But I am specifically speaking of feild to city raids.

Starting with the gaurds surrounding the crossroads. I rescently made a toon for the gauntlet, took him over to the crossroads and in emminent defeat, I ran. The Orc chased me all the way back to Pelennor feild. And they proceeded to wipe out ALL of the gaurds outside. Difficulty imballance #1.

Next is the Bridge vs the great gate. Archers being the issue both sides contend with, Mordor wins again. MT archers are on a wall that no one has a problem hiding from. You just bash the gate, turn around and start fighting the gaurds and you are out of sight of the archers. Hug any wall and they cant target you. Also, the casters stop attacking because there isnt aanything to target. Morgul bridge, however, leaves the entire area with no where to "hide" from casters and archers/Ballistas making it HARDER to get into MM.

Lastly, the actual city. While there is plenty to run around, in and thru in MM, there are almost NO places to immediately run to to rebuff, heal etc once you make it into Mordor. There are 4 times as many NPCs to fight and you have to make it thru all of that before you can find a safe haven. Unlike MT where you go in the gate, you immediately have 2 choices of buildings to run into and flat expanse to run to where the NPCs quit following - like the wall.

So to all of you mords who brag over shout, rub it in Gondors face that you take Aragorn at will... What's there to brag about? You got it easy.

[pinkpuff]

Morgul bridge is easier than Mt gates. Once u get past the gate the archers stop shooting at you in morgul. 

Once you get inside morgul you can outrun the npc's and go to a place to rest, only the Elites and goblins will follow. In MT EVERYTHING follows you EVERYWHERE.

Morgul does have more NPC's, but most like the xbowmen and the blackguards are completely useless and would have trouble hurting themselves.

The only thing in morgul that is harder than Faramir or the THREE peacekeeprs is WK himself.

Did you know the wraith at morgul gates, you know the one that is supposed to equal faramir, has something like 40ab? 40ab, wtf can u hit with 40ab?

The one thing that is easier about gondor is Aragorn, he is weaker than WK. But he rolls with 2 pk's, 2 knights, and the damn healer. WK gets 2 weak wraiths and 2 of the standard weak goblins.


All said and done morgul is easier to get thru. All it takes is a 80ish ac mage with Warding that can spam ice/horrids. Done. Try that in gondor and you end up wasting most of your spells as the Healer drops heal after heal on the npcs you are trying to kill.

[Terrorble]

Correct.  The cities are different.

[klixon]

Correct.  The cities are different.

QFT

brilliant post btw

[Nobutadas]

I agree that MM is harder.  The archers have such high ab at MM that they easily kill my toons with high ac. like 86ish ac.  I have a mele that could get around 72 ab and still could barely damage wk.  I have tried 4 different times with 4 different groups and toons and have not been able to even get wk to injured.  it is def unbalanced.

[pinkpuff]

Yeah? And how many times have you been to Minas Tirith?

[charliebuckett]

I going to refain from ripping anyone because I once thought MM was harder too.  But its not and its not even close.  A well build dragon with some nice pierce dr can solo MM.  My sorc PM solo's everything but the WK.  A risen walks in literally.  My Mordor dragon can (at times) solo into MT but dies in seconds in the Hall of the King.  The WK's ac is a bit high now.  But thats about it.  WK is hard to kill now but you'd almost want to die to do so.

[tonoplast]

well gondor city was nerfed by HA nerf ^^ so i guess that settles it!

[Kermit]

well gondor city was nerfed by HA nerf ^^ so i guess that settles it!

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!! We have a winner!

The note I made most seem to be passing over is the ability to hide behind things to avoid the MT archers where there isnt a way to hide in MM. Good lord, I took a Barbarian solo all the way to Faramir(before the HA nerf) and could get a better built one passed the gate on the Morgul bridge. The design of MM is better suited to defend a raid.

Some time whenever there is time, it could be revisited and looked at from these points of view. I realize there is much being done. Just keeping it in the thought proccess.

[ollebroc]

The rebuilding of the cities was started months ago. So enjoy the easy walk thrus now while ya can. 

[charliebuckett]

well gondor city was nerfed by HA nerf ^^ so i guess that settles it!

Hmm pretty sure I tired since the HA nerf and was still owned in the Hall of the King I'll try again sometime.

[Endlessorrow]

My city raid toons are different builds for each faction  but i can say for me with my builds mm is easier the archers in mt when they do kit have on hit mords or something and the crosbowmen cant damage my mm raider farimir and his peacekeeping posse are much tougher than the wraiths,

 Aragorn and company destroy me solo and have proven unkillable by any party ive ben with

 Wk is also unkilllable by me but i can solo all the way to him and have a nice long fight not hurting him  and still survive and run away with my Gondor raider....

[pinkpuff]

Ok, let me reiterate this since it apparently got skipped over. The Mordor archers DO NOT follow you, EVERYTHING in Gondor DOES...get it?

And i dont think many people understand just how truly imbalanced HA was. MT inner gate for instance, 2 knights, Faramir, and a PK. That is 20 attacks per round coming at you. Each time you were hit there was a 25% chance of HA stripping everything you had, EVERYTHING. Once stripped you were dead within seconds. So do the math - 20 attacks per round, avg of 1 hit per round even if your ac was 343, so on average you would last 4 rounds before being wiped....ooohhhh 24 seconds.

This is a pointless topic seeing as how only a small handful of people even really know what they are talking about.

But thats ok, im sure all of this complaining will be fruitful, my guess is that both cities will be completely impossible as a result. Much like how the server is 90% melee now because of all the crying over mages and clerics.

Whats it matter anyways. It's not like any Gondor players dare to step foot in morgul. They act like the Mordor players would remember all the times they  were lame and relogged there higher lvl toons to defend from the walls.

[Kermit]

Altho you are right.... MT WAS harder, it isnt now.  No more HA so getting into MT is a breeze. The only people defending Gondor dont have really uber gear(noobs and me) so our only option IS the wall. But its not like Mords dont run the catwalks either side of the bridge. 

Since the path to Shelobs is thru the crossroads, why no make the path to Spirits thru pelennor? Beef up the PF gaurds to make them even with the ones outside of the crossroads? The things Im talking about would actually take very little to do. The general populace isnt going to try raids on either side so the actual cities probably aren't going to see much change for a while. But the areas we are in most of the time could be equalled out. Crossroads, Pelennor Feild, The Great Gate and the MM Bridge.

1. There are 14 archers in Xrds 4 in PF. (granted- 2 in PF are stronger)
2. The guards outside of Xrds - 2 can wipe out everything outside of PF
3. There are 4 acid weilding goblins mid Xrds there are 4 halfling in the corner near the gate.
4.  To get to CU tower and Shelobs you have to go thru Xrds. You can avoid Gondor to get to Spirit.
5. There are 3 quests in PF (2 universal) creating a hostile environment only found in PF making it more likely that most PvP will be in PF not in Xrds.
6. There are 2 fairly difficult gaurds in both- but the ones in Xrds canvas the whole Xrds. the 2 in Gondor hover by the gate transition.

The Bridge/Great Gate

1. The areas are flat on the bridge IE no where to hide from the Archers/Ballistas. Great Gate you hug the Wall and you're safe from those.
2. there are 4 archers 2 healers and 2 mages on the walls in the Great Gate same as on the bridge but add 2 Ballistas on the Bridge.
3. There are equal ground forces gaurding both Great Gate and the Bridge Gates.

The Cities I will say I have little expirience fighting there but I will note that there is an unobstructed view from ANYWHERE by the 8 Archers as you enter the City Zone and 6 can target you as you enter the gate of MM. 4 in MT as you enter the zone an 2 once you enter the city. And inside the gate there are  6 assorted casters/fighters in MM and 2 in MT (the ones on the walls dont count for they lose target lock due to the walls in the way) And there are hostiles in nearly every corner of Mordor- not so with Gondor.

So I have some idea of what Im talking about. Go ahead- I can hear it "MT gaurds are tougher" yeah? well I would rather fight 4 knights instead of a dozen(archers included) that are just about as tough.

In mordors defense:  There isnt any quest in their Xrds.

You want to prove me wrong? Break out with you and 1 other Gondor and show me you can have as uneventful a run on Mordor as you do with Gondor. The other factor involved it that you have moslty newbs in Gondor who have little to no uber gear and have really no chance at defending Gondor. In every attempt but 1 on Mordor, the Mords defend with better gear, more experience players AND more people.

Im not saying make it impossible- Im saying make it equal.

[pinkpuff]

The Gondor Gate Guard could take out all of Crossroads but itself.

The Gondor Sorcs open with Disjunction and Hellball. The auto KD from Hellball might as well be auto respawn. The Mordor Wizards aren't even close enough to cast a single spell, so they just stand there and look at you.

And yet again i will explain tht the mordor archers will NOT chase you. The Gondor Marksmen however DO. They might "lose their lock" a you say but then they just come around the corner firing. The Mordor archers dont move.....period..

As for the challenge of taking 1 person to Morgul with me and getting thru the whole thing....I do it rather often. Myself and 1 other person (an archer at that) rampage morgul, Witchking/Ungoliant included with i would say about a 95% success rate.

Minas Tirith on the other hand is a completely different story. I have been there a few times and did manage to kill Aragorn with a party of 2...ONCE out of maybe 7-8 attempts.

If you rather fight Pk's than anything you find in Morgul then it is quite obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

Bottom line. Morgul can be done easily with 2 people. Minas Tirith requires a considerable amount of luck to pull the same feat. Build a lvl 40 Mordor, attack MT, then come back and repost.

[charliebuckett]

Just tired to raid MT with Zuul.  Died twice and got bored with.  My sorc PM walks into MM easily try that with a Mordor sorc PM in MT and see what happens. 

[Snake]

Of course mordor is better than gondor...you needed to make a thread for this???

Im sure you all have already heard this old news but....

Mordor is cool

Gondor is lame

Nuff said 

[Kermit]

As for not knowing what Im talking about, I have never soloed into either city tho I have tried. I got a BARBARIAN up to Faramir and Killed 2 NPCs. On the other side, I took a PM to mordor and made it to the Wraith... then died from the afore mentioned archers you cant hide from. Lately, I cant get passed the bridge gate. So Im basing my opinion on my experience. I am basing it on what I see happen when raids take place.  Most Raids on Mordor end on the bridge before the first gate. So I may not have the experience IN the cities, but getting TO them is out of wack. (note- more than one attempt in both sides)

And I would love to help you drag a gate gaurd( which there is only 1 of INSIDE PF) all the way back to mordor and see what happens. I did drag 2 of the EXTERIOR xrds orc back to pf. They killed everything along the way and everything outside PF. Do that with a gondor scout thats parked outside PF.

But whatever. This is GvM- I would like to see from xrds/pf to and thru the cities be ballanced out. I would also like to see it take a minimum of 3 people and 3 different classes to get thru the bridge/gate and cities. AND make it tougher than Barad Dur. This is GvM not G&M vs BD. Just my few centavos.


And of course mordor is better than gondor. It has the experienced players who have all the items. 

[pinkpuff]

See thtas the problem. Now the cities will be insanely uber and untouchable.

Watch what you wish for.

[HazMatt]

Bitterneess!!!  Wrenching of teeth!!!  Allegations of unfairness!!!

[Snake]

whats the fun of having two sides if they dont hate eachother 

[Rade]

Well I just -had- to test some portion of these claims for myself, and here are my results. Yes, I broke rules by dominating faction NPCs, I lost 700 xp; no one else was hurt I'm sure.
I ask (-ed in game as well) that no one repeat this experiment without DM approval or if they themselves are a DM - I didn't have it, but we don't want rampant rule-breaking now do we?

First test:
I dominated the Gondor Gate Guard, restored him to full HP once I got him to the x-roads; and there he proceeded to wipe out everything including the 2 patrolling guards and a spawn of Goblin Nosepickers. He was very close to death though, at the end I hit him for 10 damage and he died.

So the conclusive results are that Gondor has 1 NPC that can kill all of the crossroads on a good day. Maybe he got lucky with a lot of hits, but he accomplished this feat at least once. Admittedly this one does not move, the ones that do are the Gondor Archers, which are balanced 2-for-2 with the patrollers on Mordor's side.

Second test:
Being informed that in the original story "The Orc" refers to two external x-roads guards, and only the outside of Pelennor Fields, I brought 2 Mordor Orc Warriors to Pelennor Fields. I walked into PF, there were no immediate guards so we proceeded to the north-side where there was a half-beaten group of Gondor Guards, with 1 Gondor Scout and NO clerics. One of the Mordor Orc Warriors died there and the other got to injured; he proceeded to attack the 2 groups of smaller scouts, defeated 1, and didn't even last a second with the next batch.

Observations:
A Gondor Scout Leader is on par with a Mordor Orc Warrior (the Leader defeated 1 Orc in a duel and died to the other). There are 5 Gondor Scout Leaders located across Pelennor Fields, there are 6 Mordor Orc Warriors placed around Mordor Crossroads.
All the Orc Warriors are outside of the Crossroads, whereas only 2 Gondor Scouts are outside.
A Mordor Raider is identical to a Gondor Scout. In Pelennor they are predominately the outside force, but also compose part of the inside. In the Crossroads they are the inside force.
Goblin Nosepickers = ... whatever those halfling guys are called that are identical, keg jugglers?
Gondor Archers = ... the Mordor Orcs with Greatswords that patrol
Gondor Gate Guard has no parallel in the Crossroads.
I suppose (can't really test) Gondor Clerics = Morgul Sorcerers, but I can't be sure... Hammer of Gods and slay living beat Summon Creature 1 and ghostly visage in my opinion.
Gondor Snipers have no parallel in the Crossroads.
Gondor Guards (lesser Gate Guards) also have no parallel in the Crossroads.

Conclusions:
I can see how the OUTSIDE of the Crossroads is greater than the OUTSIDE of Pelennor Fields; but I cannot agree that the same is the case for INSIDE.
The outsides are different, but neither clearly presents a significant difference; especially if one engages in tactics - for example: Realizing that the 'fortifications' some of the guards stand on often cause them not to move, especially the casters; both external areas can easily be ran past in invisibility.
Balance is spelled with one "L".

[charliebuckett]

Balance is spelled with one "L".

ROFL

[Kermit]

=P if ballance is spelled with one "L" then why wont spellcheck fix it? 

[Terrorble]

Rade you forgot about the farmers, chickens, and cows!  The mordor raiders pwn those things.