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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Players Forum  |  PvP statistics
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Author Topic: PvP statistics  (Read 60606 times)
Lief
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« on: 11 October 2008, 09:52 »

Howdy all,

If you have an interest in the PvP statistics for the last three months, please check out the following page:

http://www.gondorvsmordor.com/gvm1/wiki/index.php/Category:PvP

You will note that Gondor has won 52% of all PvP engagements (ignoring such counterpoints as kills made because of petrification of a 'mixed' teammate and the fact that Soay killing Mana 13 times in Osgiliath; both are gonds  Grin).

In the future, I hope that we can have something akin to QZ's Bounty Hunter title.

Ciao,

Lief
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Turril
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« Reply #1 on: 11 October 2008, 10:36 »

nice work marcus
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ManiacK
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« Reply #2 on: 11 October 2008, 12:35 »

 hello2 Worship The Stats are back.

I hope you don't mind that I did a little bit of cosmetic surgery on the page. I thought it might look better with tables, if you don't like it I can revert it to its original state. Ow and I also took the liberty to add some charts in it that you can also use in the future, they are generated by a google api I installed some time ago.

For more information about how to use them: http://code.google.com/p/gchart4mw/
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Lief
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« Reply #3 on: 11 October 2008, 16:57 »

Howdy,

My response:

1. my pleasure

2. Cheers ManiacK; I guess I will have to learn about these things, e.g. gchart4mw. 

For October, I hope to see at least 3 or 4k PvP engagements and I shall follow Rune's advice and do more in depth analysis and include, for instance, kill-loss ratios for the top killers. You are, of course, welcome to make other suggestions as well as to provide ideas on how to add additional depth to this aspect of GvM1.

Ciao,

Lief
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« Reply #4 on: 11 October 2008, 17:28 »

Im happy, yea!
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« Reply #5 on: 11 October 2008, 17:55 »

Awesome- Keep up the great work!!!
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pinkpuff
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« Reply #6 on: 11 October 2008, 18:42 »

How about a stat for unfinished pvp, you know, where the would be loser runs.
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« Reply #7 on: 11 October 2008, 20:08 »

"To farm or not to farm, that is the question"

Lol, good job Marcus! Glad to see we have pvp stats back online again!
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Endlessorrow
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« Reply #8 on: 11 October 2008, 20:43 »

Yay  Cool
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Lief
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« Reply #9 on: 12 October 2008, 05:50 »

Howdy all,

Thank you. It was interesting to grind through the numbers.

In any event, I have added additional tables that might be of interest, including kill ratios (Rune) and a few other interesting tables suggested by others. Enjoy and please raise your kill count for this month of October; it would help me to form more robust conclusions since I would not have to rely on non-parametric testing.   

Sadistics are almost as mind numbing as xp farming in stingers...  Grin

Ciao,


Lief
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« Reply #10 on: 17 October 2008, 18:24 »

Howdy all,

I have asked the DM team to bring back the Bounty Hunter server shouts for the toon that has the best PvP victory ratio; this is now under their consideration. The Bounty Hunter gets his name shouted for the whole of the following month whenever he/she/it logs in.

Originally, I was going to use the raw pvp kill numbers. However, after talking to Rune and Parknutz, "I [now] have a cunning plan." Here are the rules:

1. must have a minimum of 15 kills per month; this is to account for a toon that makes just one kill the entire month
2. legal, but not impossible kills count for ONE point
3. impossible kills count for TWO points
4. effy kills, for whatever reason, will NOT be counted for the victory ratio calculation
5. if two or more toons have the same victory ratio, then the toon with the higher overall PvP kill count (excluding effy kills) will get the top place; if there is still a tie, then there will be a duel in the arena that is overseen by me (or a DM if I have fallen asleep or am afk)

                           THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE !

Well, having said all of this, let me know of what you think?

Cheers,


Lief
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Noruas
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« Reply #11 on: 17 October 2008, 18:41 »

good idea, even if i am too bad in pvp to figure in Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: 17 October 2008, 20:18 »

When I got the old bounty hunter title it was from killing rades toon the most, and rades toon was a previous month pvp most kills champ all i had to do was log on a toon that was tough vs his  build and kill and kill it a few (like 4) times the following  month. 

 I got that bounty hunter flag on my toon for 3 months till I felt so guilty I gave it to a dm  cause the pvp tracking system had ended  lol

 This system seems a lot better, I never felt i earned the cool server shout or the item benifits under the old system this one seems much tougher 

   That bounty hunter  flag is a handy item as well as a server shout trigger when you log on.
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Lief
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« Reply #13 on: 19 October 2008, 03:14 »




Howdy all,

OK, Olle has agreed to revive the Bounty Hunter title/server shouts. Woot!

In addition, I talked to the Turril and got one additional input. This concerns the problem where XX makes exactly 15 kills with zero losses and stops playing the toon for the rest of the month (or alternatively, YY gets 16 - 0 or ZZ gets 17 - 0). The beauty of this rule is that you never know when you've killed enough


Revised rules for the Victory Ratio calculation:

1. must have a minimum of 15 non-effy PvP kills for the month

2. effy kills, for whatever reason, count for ZERO points

3. legal, but not impossible kills count for ONE point

4. impossible kills count for TWO points

5. must have total victory points that is at least the average of the top 10 toons

6. if two or more toons have the same victory ratio, then the toon with the higher overall PvP kill count (excluding effy kills) will get the top place; if there is still a tie, then there will be a duel in the arena






EXPLANATION OF (new) RULE FIVE

Here is an example that explains Rule 5. All kills in this example are legal, but not impossible kills (to make things easier). Also, there are no effy kills, which don't count anyway.            
               
1. AA: 15 - 0 = 100.0%
2. BB: 20 - 0 = 100.0%
3. CC: 25 - 0 = 100.0%
4. DD: 30 - 3 = 90.9%
5. EE: 35 - 6 = 85.4%
6. FF: 40 - 9 = 81.6%
7. GG: 45 - 12 = 78.9%
8. HH: 50 - 15 = 76.9%
9. II: 55 - 18 = 75.3%
10. JJ: 60 - 21 = 74.1%

Looking at just the victory ratios, toon CC appears to have won the Bounty Hunter title since he has the highest victory ratio and also he has the greatest number of victories, as compared to AA and BB. However, the average for the victory points gained by the top ten players is 37.5. This means that toons AA to EE cannot be even considered for the Bounty Hunter title since their victory points are less than the 37.5 average.

And so, looking at the remaining top 10 players, it is evident that FF wins since:
   (a) he has at least 15 non-effy PvP kills;
   (b) he has 40 victory points, which is greater than the 37.5 avg; and
   (c) he has the highest victory ratio, 81.6%.


Please provide any feedback here or in-game. Thanks!

Ciao,


Lief
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pinkpuff
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« Reply #14 on: 19 October 2008, 19:23 »

What a jumbled wad of crap.

I mean, ffs, its a video game, why make it so ridiculously complicated?
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locmer
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« Reply #15 on: 19 October 2008, 21:27 »

What Lief is trying to accomplisch here is to have some more PvP on the server.

Which has been a topic much adressed recently by alot of peeps.

I love the effort, so cheers Lief.

But to read between the lines, Pink has a point aswell.

Lets not make it too complicated, Simplicity works best most of the time.

But in any event, I like the fact that PvP stats are back. Keep up the good work.

Cheers
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Lief
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« Reply #16 on: 20 October 2008, 00:53 »

Heya,

Thanks Locmer. A lot of thought was put into the mechanism for determining the Bounty Hunter. There is but one reason for all of this: to keep the determination of who is Bounty Hunter as objective as possible. 

Although it looks complicated, it is not. If I were to draw a diagram using the online widget program to which Maniack referred, you will see that it is a very simple flowchart. 

Anyway, it seems complicated because the mechanism:

A. must account for:

1. those who make a lot of effy kills. There is no reason why they should get Bounty Hunter title based on effy kills. In contrast, the existing Top PvP killer (toons and account) tables retain effy kills in their respective counts, as you will note.

     e.g. Top Killers table lists Calandria as having made 26 PvP kills
           Top Killers ratio table lists Calandria as having 96.3% victory ratio since there was only one loss
           This should make Calandria the Bounty Hunter.
           However, the Effy Killers, toons table notes that 16 of the 26 PvP kills were effy kills, whether because they were killed in AOO, area spells or in self defense - who knows?
          The point is that if one disregards the effy kills, Calandria has only won 10 non-effy PvP fights.
           And so, under the mechanism outlined above, Calandria does not become eligible for consideration because the required minimum of 15 victories has not been met. The letter is the first hurdle for determining eligibility, per the rules.


2.  those who make the extra effort and are able to kill impossible opponents


3. those who "game the system" in that they kill the bare minimum since they know that 15, for example, is all they need (i.e. without rule 5). And so, although there is a possibility that someone will make 16 kills and have zero losses or another will do 17 kills and have no losses, there is a reasonable expectation of what is needed.

However, rule 5 prevents anyone from being able to game the system since no one knows what the average victory number will be. And thus, people who want to get Bounty Hunter title will have to accept the risk and keep fighting (PvP).


B. must be clearly stated BEFORE-hand.
This is so that there is no room for ambiguity and uncertainty. It is axiomatic that when tempers flare, reason is difficult to find. And thus, by setting the rules down precisely, there can be no debate about the determination of who won the Bounty Hunter title. 


Well, as a final comment, please don't reply to my thread if you have no rationale for making objections. I am not looking for thanks, but I am looking for different perspectives/ideas that would help, rather than merely criticize. Indeed, one comment that I noted simply pointed out a subjective, first impression that cites no reason or logic. I daresay that this person did not take the  time to understand the mechanism.

Ciao,


Lief
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KrazyKuban
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« Reply #17 on: 20 October 2008, 07:18 »

There is a simple method by which one could do this that would cover all that which you wish to account for...

To start things off, why does the Top Killers bracket count Effy Kills?  Whether they are "legal" effortless kills or not, they should not be counted at all, due to the variable nature of their legality.

Other than that, having a "minimum" kills rule is unnecessary if there is a point system implemented.  Without enough kills, you do not have enough points.  Period.

However, I do acknowledge that by that token someone could kill half as many impossibles to get the same points as someone hitting in-range targets and find themselves on top in that way.  For that reason, I think it should not matter whether you kill an impossible or not.  How many avid PvPers do we know of that are twink players, myself included?  Depending on who they target, someone could run up their score easily by targeting weaker higher-level characters.  Its not hard to do if you know who/how/what to target.  A "legal" kill should be a legal kill, period.

Well what about someone who kills for a perfect record and then stops logging in? Well, that's solved rather easily as well.  Do not do it by percentages.  In my mind, a "perfect record" is not indicative of "the best PvPer".  I could go on a killing spree in one day and rack up 10, 20, even 30 legal kills by waiting for ample time to pass before killing someone over and over again.  Its difficult to claim "griefing" if someone is killed say...hourly.  We know it to be griefing of sorts, but it would be hard to prove given the lack of DMs present at all hours.  Sure, screenshots could work, but its a lot of police work just to determine that someone's "perfect record" is not actually legitimate.

Much better would be to go purely on number of non-effy kills on the point system you have proposed.  One point per non-effortless kill, regardless of impossible status or otherwise, and a point lost for every death.  In that way, someone who engages in 100 pvp battles and kills at say a 70 percent rate, is left with 40 points, appropriately topping someone who only engages in 20 pvp kills and has a perfect record.

If there is a preference to rewarding impossible kills by increasing their point value, then there should be a penalty for losing to an impossible.  I know that there are times when accidents happen, but its primarily due to human error.  No one tells an effortless to stand so close to combat where they might be collateral.  And that is why effortless kills would not be rewarded.  It is also part of the reason behind not rewarding impossible kills(aside from the aforementioned twinking).

And as a side note, there are certain individuals who need to stop with the "holier than thou" attitudes and cut the pretentious horse-hockey, because I daresay it makes those of us that are quite obviously beneath their stature want to reach through the screen and show them what it really feels like to have a stick up their rear.  But hey, its the internet.  I would not expect anything less.

Edit:  Upon further review the items stricken through were not thought out before posting.  While it is really against my nature to take back something I say, I do admit that perhaps forethought should have gone into it, ergo the strike-through.
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« Reply #18 on: 20 October 2008, 07:45 »

Without getting into this too deeply, I think many would agree that a lvl40 should get a point if attacked by a lvl34 and wins.  The degree of effortless is a wide spectrum. 

At a glance, you could subtract combatant levels from eachother and put a somewhat arbitrary cut off of say 12 for whether to count an effy kill or not.  (e.g.  lvl22 attacks a 40 and loses.  difference is 18 so not counted.  lvl29 attacks and loses, lvl40 gets the point.  lvl20 accidentally takes out a lvl10, gets counted.  oh well)  Not perfect and not my problem to figure out.  Good luck Lief hahahah  We do like having stats back.
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« Reply #19 on: 20 October 2008, 10:06 »

Geez its the first time ever ive seen Gondor in front!!! Need to dig out my Mordor toons again  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: 20 October 2008, 14:13 »

It just seems dumb to make all sorts of restrictive rules but yet still fall short.


How about 0 points for any pvp that isnt 1 on 1?
Or less points for those with with better items.


Or best yet, how about we drop the thesaurus/spellcheckers and just let it be how it was. Type like we normally would in game, using words we wold normally use, and be done with it.
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« Reply #21 on: 20 October 2008, 16:35 »

There's no way to tell if an effortless was killed accidentily, an impossible defending themselves, or an illegal kill. They will not count.

There's no way to tell if one is killed 1 on 1 or grouped.
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« Reply #22 on: 20 October 2008, 19:03 »

 Do the stats include pvp kills of the same faction? as can happen in events? or killing a fellow faction member who was in a opposing faction partyt? or is it just the kills that get the server shouts?
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« Reply #23 on: 20 October 2008, 21:38 »

Howdy all,

Here is my response:

Response to Endless
"Do the stats include pvp kills of the same faction?"
Yes. The server saves quite a bit of info from each PvP encounter. 

In fact, the PvP data may have been used for jusifying the deletion of one of the toons of an individual here. Of course, the screenie of him killing someone from his own faction alone might have been sufficient to justify punishment.

Moreover, the PvP data can tell if someone is griefing. One just looks at the time and datestamp  police




do NOT reward effy, self-defense kills
Terrorble, I disagree with your argument here for the purpose of the Victory Ratio table. The Bounty Hunter should impress. But, the word impressive is subjective. So, while a level 40 killing a level 34 is not very impressive to QQ, it might be impressive to RR ... etc. With this lack of consensus, I do not want to set a limit, which would be, in your own words, "somewhat arbitrary."

And so, I have integrated my victory ratio formula with the EXISTING PvP rules, which declare that the limit is 5 up and 5 down. This is as objective as one can be. And as stated before, the mechanism for determining the Bounty Hunter MUST BE as objective as possible in order to preclude or at least minimize whining on the forums.




do NOT penalize for loss to an impossible
There are two practical points here. First, it is probably not feasible to determine who attacked first as Ollebroc notes. Related to this problem is that there is a strong likelihood that erroneous results WILL transpire. Here, assigning the aggressor label is integral to the proposed penalty for failing to defeat an impossible against which you initiated combat. But reality and the combat log MAY NOT agree.

So for example, it is my belief that if impossible MM illegally attacks effy NN, but MM has a lower initiative (composite) roll than NN, then NN will appear in the combat log to be the aggressor since NN will be the first to have the chance to hit. So, while the combat log would suggest that NN is the attacker, the reality is that MM is the attacker. Here, NN would be wrongly penalized. Would this happen all of the time? Nno. Does the uncertainty cause concern. Yes. Is uncertainty bad when the objective is to avoid subjectivity regarding determination of the Bounty Hunter. Yes.

Equally important, I do not want to penalize toons for failing in an attempt to kill an impossible toon since this would act as an unreasonable deterrent to PvP. And like most people, I want to see more PvP on our lovely server.




Different tables have different purposes 

When examining the different tables, one must keep in mind that they each serve different purposes. Accordingly, each table will consider or reject certain types of data.

And so, the tables "Top Killers" (toon and account) and "Favourite Victims" (toon and account) MERELY provide an indication of how often certain individuals partake in PvP, whether voluntary or involuntary. For the killers, it is suggestive of their pugnaciousness and for the victims, it is suggestive of the fact that they ... need to learn how to PvP more effectively. And so, for this limited objective of the "Top Killers" tables, the fact that a kill is an effy kill or an impossible kill is irrelevant. To be clear, these tables have ZERO relevance to the determination of the Bounty Hunter for the month.

In contrast, the "Top Killers: ratios" table, which will be replaced by the "Victory Ratio" table, is the table that will determine which toon is the Bounty Hunter. And since the latter should be the toon that is the "best" at PvP, one must therefore evaluate the quality of the kills. The easiest measure of quality is whether a kill is effy or impossible. Gear quality is impossible to quantify, i.e. it is subjective. 




argument for the point system misses the "point"

The posited point system implies that 10 toons must be listed. In contrast, rule 1 makes clear that there is the possibility that NO ONE will be listed. This was intentional.

I see no purpose and I have no interest in evaluating 10 toons for the "Victory Ratio" table merely for the sake of populating this table. And so, if only 5 people managed to make the 15 minimum PvP kills during the month, then only these five will be further evaluated. To put it simply, if you're not good enough, then you will not be considered merely because of a quota requirement.



 
victory ratio system is superior to the posited point system

I have provided an example. The victory points column determines who is the Bounty Hunter under the posited point system, while the victory ratio system looks to the victory ratio column.

   wins - losses  ** victory points ** victory ratio
AA: 15 -  0  **  15 **  100.0%
BB: 20 -  5  **    15 **  80.0%
CC: 30 - 10  **  20 **  75.0%
DD: 40 - 15  **  25 **  72.7%
EE: 50 - 20  **  30 **  71.4%
FF: 60 - 25  **    35 **  70.6%
GG: 70 - 30  **  40 **  70.0%

1. Toons AA to GG are the only toons that have made the requisite 15 non-effy PvP kills for the month.

2. For simplicity, presume that there are no effy kills and no impossible kills.

3. The average number of "wins" is 40.7. Accordingly, AA, BB, CC and DD are eliminated from further consideration because of rule five. Again, rule 5 is important because throughout the whole month, none of the players knew that they had to reach the 40.7 number, i.e. 41.
 
4. Having narrowed the Bounty Hunter decision to three toons, one will note two different conclusions depending on the methodology employed. Under the posited point system, GG is the Bounty Hunter because he has 40 victory points. However, under the ratio system championed by myself, EE is the Bounty Hunter since he has the highest victory ratio, i.e. 71.4%.

Now, you ask why choose the victory ratio system? The simple answer is that the victory ratio system has ratio data and not merely ordinal data. It has been a while since I studied statistics, but there are four different 'levels' of data. In increasing order of the informational complexity associated with each level, they are: nominal, ordinal, interval and ratio.

Since I am not a statistician, my layman's explanation of the superiority of the victory ratio system is that  the latter provides information about how well a toon does against others AS WELL AS information about how well that toon does against himself, in a manner of speaking. In contrast, the point system cancels out, in a manner of speaking, the information about how well a toon does against himself and thus, it merely provides information on how well he did against others. The "cancelling" occurs with the subtraction of losses from the wins. In short, the numbers in the “victory points” column above is one-dimensional, while the numbers in the “victory ratio” column provides a two-dimensional insight.

Another reason why the victory ratio system is better is that it accounts for time/effort. While some people have jobs or jobs with a spouse or jobs with a spouse and 1 kid or jobs with a spouse and 2 kids, others are one "vacation." Unlike the argument regarding farmers and their hard earned uber gear, one cannot use this time/effort logic for the Bounty Hunter determination. Bearing rule 5 in mind, being the best at PvP does not mean that you have to be online as often as others. *cough*

For example, I will admit that Rune and tonoplast are better at PvP than I am. But the former is busy with RL and the latter is busy with his crops.  Grin




Please cite rationale and do not merely make (unsupported) assertions
"dumb to make all sorts of restrictive rules but yet still fall short"
dumb: subjective 
restrictive rules: I disagree, but no justification has been provided for this assertion
still fall short: ibid

How about 0 points for any pvp that isnt 1 on 1?
As Ollebroc noted, this is not logistically practical. On another note, don't travel alone. Make some friends. I have always encouraged more interaction between players in this community. And banding up for the sake of protection or to attack as a wolfpack are certainly good justification for interacting with fellow players.

Or less points for those with with better items.
This argument conflicts with YOUR often repeated belief that people who dedicate themselves to farming should be rewarded with better gear and by extension, extra capability to kill opponents. To penalize people for USING the farmed gear when it comes to Bounty Hunter determination, as you have suggested, makes no sense.

Equally important, "better items" is 100% subjective.

drop the thesaurus/spellcheckers
Actually, I think the spellchecker is a useful tool that helps me to better communicate my thoughts and ideas. I've never been a big fan of the thesaurus, however, since the denotation and connotation of a word may not be in sync over time. 


Thanks for reading.

Ciao,



Lief
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« Reply #24 on: 21 October 2008, 04:16 »

Cheese and rice...I may never come back unless I have a abacus to track all this stuff...don't you people have jobs or studing to do????
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