PvP statistics

[Nobutadas]

Then you should build a level 30 toon to kill this level 25. :p

[Sancho29]

Hahaha daccid you have a retarted number of teamkills.
Congrats on BH though.  This next month I need to run my tanks less,  and re-gear some of my hunters.  As Nouras would say,  I'll see you on the battlefield. 

[Khaine]

Eh, I don't really like the whole "become lame to defeat lame" thing. Really, rewarding people who can't PvP properly is just stupid, IMO.

PS: About teamkills, I'm guessing stuff like giving people free port out of MM/MT and killing people who are drained counts as a teamkill?

[Sancho29]

Yes,  and also when you just outright teamkill for whatever reason.

[Khaine]

Yes,  and also when you just outright teamkill for whatever reason.

I would never do something like that.

[Lief]

Nlawson:

Below, you will see that you spread out all of your kills across most of your toons, unlike Flaccid, who concentrated most of his kills on two toons.  


Breakdown of NLawson's toons' PvP Kills - July 2010
DiffFaction - Toon - SameFaction
1   Gondor Peacekeeper   2
0   Morinehtar the Blue    5
1   Mortasi the Red   4
1   Nazgul Enforcer   1
5   Nazgul Reaper   0
0   Nazgul Rider   3
0   Reclaimer Morinehtar   1
1   Reclaimer Urkdrengi   0
9   subTOTAL   16

grandtotal = 25


I disagree with you. The Bounty Hunter title is given to the person with the best quantitative AND qualitative kills. The phrase "in terms of pure kills" refers merely to the quantitative factor. And killing your teammate so that they can port freely or to resolve a level drain does not fall under anyone's definition of a quality kill - I hope. Starting next month, killing teammates will neither hurt you, nor help you with becoming the BH for the month.


"If I won all my fights I'd be top of the board by miles." -- I thought about this comment. I've decided that this is probably true (unless you had fewer fights than the necessary minimum to take the title).



Flaccid:

     1. One must fight fire with fire !

Generally speaking, it is very difficult to kill twinks (i.e. toons that are designed for PvP at one specific level). So, either make a twink yourself or avoid toons that fall under this category. Of course, not all twinks are created equal ...

In any event, I'm not sure what you mean by "only calculate wins vs losses and nothing else." The formulas used for the BH algorithm is contained in this thread. If however you mean that I should exclude twinked toons from BH consideration, then I say that it would be impossible to implement.

While some builds are clearly twinks, e.g. 17 wiz 1 sd 1 fighter|monk, most are not. Moreover, some twinks actually level up very nicely to level 40. In this latter case, it's a very difficult question of WHEN a twink is no longer a twink (from the perspective of the person that is calculating the PvP stats). For example, Jehanne was a level 24 twink (bard 8 sd 2 aa 14); later, J1 leveled up (without any de-leveling or the like) into a decent AA toon (29 aa, 2 sd 9 bard).



2. teamkills

Yes, under the existing BH algorithm, if you kill your teammate so that he/she/it can port freely out of MT/MM or so that he/she/it can resolve a level drain problem, this is counted in the BH formulas. As acknowledged by NLawson, a change is needed to the BH algorithm.    

Incidentally, the BH algorithm has included same faction kills for the simple reason that I couldn't be bothered to differentiate between DM event, same faction kills (where same faction kills would retain a qualitative element) and non-DM event, same faction kills (where there is likely no qualitative element to the kill). You can call me lazy, but as it is, the PvP statistics takes about 8+ hours to complete from the time that I receive the data to the time that I publish it.



Sancho29:

I'm not sure what this means: "Yes, and also when you just outright teamkill for whatever reason."

[Khaine]

I agree that team kills shouldn't be counted towards the BH title, and I honestly thought it did.

PS: I still say it's BS that you make it so it rewards pvp twinks, as it requires no skill at all to get the BH title with the changes you make to it. Just make a twink and prey on toons who aren't twinks for easy kills.

[azurerogue]

How would you propose to exclude twinks without also excluding genuine low-level PvP?

[NLawson]

Yeah - I'm not sure whether I'm pleased or not that my toons all seemed to get equal kills. On the one hand, it shows none of them really suck in PvP and leave themselves vulnerable - but on the other, none truly excel either. That will change soon, hopefully...and it'll be nice to get more accurate numbers when all the free ports are ignored.

What I meant by "in terms of pure kills" was - If you look only at the number of kills gained (ignoring same faction and effykills) Daccid wins by miles. That's all ^_^
I agree the BH title should be given to the person who gets the best quality kills as well as the most kills (imp kills, for example, count highly).

And when Sancho says "Yes,  and also when you just outright teamkill for whatever reason.", he's mocking me, because of a couple of instances where I've gotten angry at them while training and killed them to teach them a lesson.

And countering a twink by building a twink yourself is pointless - when you die to the twink it's usually because they logged specifically to kill you while you were on a vulnerable toon, got their kill and then logged out (or failed to kill you and ran away, losing nothing). If you build a twink to counter them, by the time you re-log and hunt them down when they show up, they've already had their fight and left.

How would you propose to exclude twinks without also excluding genuine low-level PvP?

That's the problem - you can't, unless you look at individual toons and say "That toon is definitely a twink" and then ignore all its kills. And that's WAY too much work to for Marcus to do.
Say I build a monk Sd and get 30 kills with 5 imp kills, and second place is Daccid with what he scored this time. I'm going to win BH, but since everybody knows I won it using a cheap toon which I won't fight with unless I know I'll win, and I run away otherwise, the chances are people are just going to ignore the fact that I got top place and act as if my score didn't count.

If all they care about is the BH title...let them have it. All it means is that the highest non-twink PvP score will be known as the best non-twink PvPer, and the majority will ignore twink scores.

[Sancho29]

Yeah the table that gets you respect here is the top killer (toon).  People say "hey I recognise that name as Sancho's build,  good job Sancho."   Not "OMGZ Nlawson got 100 kills on that monk sd lvl 25 of his! Those are boner inducing numbers,  I love you Lawson!"  lol,  I say, screw who wins BH,  I KNOW who the good fighters are,  I KNOW who has earned my respect.

[Nobutadas]

I hope twinks are never excluded because that is legit pvp.

[NLawson]

I hope twinks are never excluded because that is legit pvp.

They won't be OFFICIALLY excluded. That would be impossible to implement, as Deni pointed out, and yes it IS legit PvP...it's also incredibly cheap to get a high kill ratio by building a toon that (unless it gets kded and owned - unlikely) pretty much can't lose a fight, and only logs on when it has an easy target. Because you can't factor "Ran away" or "nearly died" into the PvP stats. The only way to compete with that type of fighting is to build almost the same thing, and use it to try and kill more people. All that does is annoy everybody because now we have 8 monk Sds on both sides running around competing to see who gets the most kills. Yes, it's a PvP server, but that's not all it's about - people have other things they want to do without being killed all the time without a hope of defending themselves.

All I meant was - if it's a twink (especially a lvl 20ish Monk SD, or a level 15 or something) who wins BH, I personally am simply going to ignore their score and consider the first non-twink on the board to be the real winner. I have nothing against somebody if they win with other things *as well as* the twink build; but if someone gets 50 kills, and all 50 are on one toon, who we all know is a twink toon it's virtually impossible to counter at those levels - I don't see how that is supposed to win anyone's respect as a good PvPer. That's just jumping people before their builds are finished, because you won't be able to kill them when they reach 35 or so and actually fulfill their purpose.

[Endlessorrow]

All I meant was - if it's a twink (especially a lvl 20ish Monk SD, or a level 15 or something) who wins BH, I personally am simply going to ignore their score and consider the first non-twink on the board to be the real winner. I have nothing against somebody if they win with other things *as well as* the twink build; but if someone gets 50 kills, and all 50 are on one toon, who we all know is a twink toon it's virtually impossible to counter at those levels - I don't see how that is supposed to win anyone's respect as a good PvPer. That's just jumping people before their builds are finished, because you won't be able to kill them when they reach 35 or so and actually fulfill their purpose.
[/quote]

  Well said Lawson, Those are   alll The reasons I rarely pvp any more.  I usualy only pick a fight if its atleast 2 vs 1 against me if i have a strong pvp toon and if its a unfinished or weak pvp build I am usualy too carefull to be caught by some one,  or too hard to kill to worry about it.

[Khaine]

On a different note;

Is multiboxers killing their own toons (on different accounts) still an issue?

[schlix]

if people are going to complain abt one form of what they feel is 'lame pvp' (in this case the monk/sd), i think its only fair to bring up what other people (at least myself) may think is equally lame, including, but not limited to:

1. killing new players regularly (say, more than once a reset…yes, I think this is even too frequently). yeah, theyre new, and their gear sucks, surely they can be dealt with quite easily. heck, good chance they have never even been in more than a handful of pvp fights. And gee, maybe if I kill them enough times they will get frustrated & leave the server, thereby eliminating any chance of increasing the server population. lame!

2. logging on an opposing toon for pvp when a city raid is going on, after the run has started. usually you see archers & mages doing this, waiting until the party is near death or in need of rest so they can pick them off from a safe distance, fully buffed. i have seen some even log multiple toons so they dont need to rest, delivering a continuous stream of aggravation onto the raiding party. in contrast to the past, cities are much, much harder to raid as it is. With both these factors, city raids are about as common these days as an ice queen run (but that place is another topic entirely). what lameness!

3. killing same faction pc's. Please, please correct me if i am wrong, but players actually got credit for killing their own faction toons? i suspect this was done unintentionally, but if it was intentional, this achieves a whole new level of Lameness.

I could elaborate more on my examples, and the list could go on as well. Just thought I’d point out a few of my own. Hope I’ve provided a bit of entertainment in the process, too hehe.

And if these grievances aren’t addressed by the admin, its just as well. I'd rather see them doing other things, like adding new areas, modifying character classes, etc.) Until then, I will follow my own personal code where the holes exist. Which, by the way, includes playing twinks ;)

[Khaine]

I'm fairly sure 99% of all my same team PC kills are giving people free ports out of DP areas (MT, MM and Smelly Cave comes to mind). That, and killing people who ask to be killed because they're lvl drained. Tbh, I figured those were not counted in the pvp statistics (at least they shouldn't be counted).

[NLawson]

Schlix:
1. If you mean once per reset per player, then I agree - eg, I log on, find they're online and in range, and kill them, then I leave them be. An hour later Sancho logs and does the same. I see that as fine (how was he to know, for example?), but if I went back a couple of hours later then that would be bad. The only exception to that is if I've been to sleep and woken up and the server still hasn't been reset. As far as I'm concerned...that's a new day.

2. I don't mind when people log opposing toons for PvP, but not once the INNER gate has been breached. If you're going to defend you have to be logged on the defending toon while they fight across the bridge at the very latest. If you're logged on and don't engage until they get to the inner city that's fine.
Logging out and picking a new character to attack with (after attacking before) is not fine. If you want to defend, swap toons while the bridge shouts are going on, and the enemy is occupied with Wraith/Faramir. Actually MM still gets raided every so often - it's not that hard unless 3 or 4 people defend, or we're a poorly prepared team that has no way of picking off the defender. MT is a little harder, thanks to the PKs and their 120+ standard hits, but I've seen at least two (successful) raids in the last couple of weeks, so it's not THAT bad.

3. I don't THINK it was intentional - most of the time it was level drain/free port (that's why my killcount was so high, I was often the party mage on MM raids, so I tended to blast them all then ice storm myself out) though there were some people multiboxing and killing their own opposing faction toons for Exp and Crystal points, which is just sad. I mean that takes sadness to a whole new level when you are actually admitting that you suck so much you can't kill anybody except yourself.

If you play twinks and get PvP kills on non-twink toons as well, then I don't care =P It's only those who don't seem to be able to do PvP at all on anything other than a low level killer (where most builds can't fight back) or a hips monk who runs away at the first sign of trouble.

EDIT: Whoops included the huge quote...no need for it since I went back and numbered which points I was responding to.

[azurerogue]

Generally my solution recently while leveling has been this:

It's pretty easy to recognize some of the more popular twink toon names.  If you're leveling and in range with a twink, just log to another character when the shout announces them pledging themselves.  Sure, it's an inconvenience to you as well - but there are surely other things you can do for a bit while the twink burns themselves out on pumping up that e-peen. 

[Khaine]

Regarding killing same players, most of the players I've killed multiple times per reset are vets (yoghurt, dragoneye, not sure how old a player chaos is, but he has a pretty good toon in zebwhateverlongnamedragontoon). Only other times I can remember were times when I went 1v2 or 1v3 against overpowered/impossible people, like spukky with my antagonist build, some other guy and schlix (at least i'm fairly sure it was schlix, it was a monk/sd build).

I don't mind dying in PvP, and when I'm bored and have nothing better to do I often find myself trying to take on a challange by trying to solo groups of the other faction. Sometimes it works, and sometimes I end up getting killed within 5 seconds of coming near them. As you can see on the PvP statistics I've died quite a few times as well. xD

[Nobutadas]

You could just die and then get raised and continue doing whatever you are doing. =D

[NLawson]

Well I'm not going to give them the BH title if I can do something about it XD

[Lief]

That's the spirit, NLawson !


If you think NLawson is a vet ( joking!), then Flaccid's assertion is correct. See below for a listing of those that were killed by Flaccid (same faction).

Total   Vacct 
1    .denikrut
1    Chaozrulez
1    Dragoneye77
2    lolzcatz
1    mer'loc
13    NLawson
2    Sancho29
1    SlowDown_BR_
3    Thiagow2008
1    Yoghy


multiboxer abuse - it doesn't appear to be a problem.


Several additional points:

1. BH title

Twinks aren't going anywhere and their scores will be considered for the BH title, as modified by the new bounty hunter algorithm. As stated before by the various posters including myself, you can make a twink to counter or you can avoid them, e.g. stay out of sight or play a toon out of their range. 

Also, I'm going to have to agree with NLawson, Sancho and Endless here. The toon that wins the BH title is only as important as you make him/her/it out to be. So, if you don't like twinks and a toon that you believe is a twink wins, then you can ignore him/her/it.



2. one pvp tactic that is "lame" 

First of all, here is my definition re: perceived degree of pvp action:
   lame > cheesy > unsporting

Having said this, I think it is more than unsporting; it is at least cheesy; and is possibly lame when a player does the following:

 (a) playerX parks his uber pvp toon (whether twink or not and who we will call KillerY) on mapZ and then logs out;
 (b) playerX plays on some other toon, but when he/she/it notices that a likely prey is moving onto mapZ, he/she/it logs out and back in with KillerY;
  (c) Then, IMMEDIATELY after the kill, playerX logs out KillerY so that there can be no counterattack against KillerY;
  (d) playerX then resumes playing gvm on a different toon.

This is not illegal, but I think it is lame.

Now, if playerX ran back to xroads or some faction area allied to him/her/it and then logged out, then I could see this being ok - so long as there is REASONABLE opportunity, whether in time or space (i.e. distance to run) for a counterattack to happen against KillerY. The latter presumes that there WOULD have been a counterattack but for the possibility that KillerY logs out IMMEDIATELY.

But everyone has their own definition.



3. Fraunck - the troubelmaking monk/sd

You can't blame Fraunck for not standing toe-to-toe vs a grunt if he was fighting a grunt. Monks are NOT made to fight that way. You might as well expect a non-pm mage to melee against a grunt.

This game is pretty much rock-paper-scissors. And for a monk/sd, the speed and hips are the primary assets. A monk/sd would lose all its/her/his advantage by standing toe-to-toe vs a grunt.

Incidentally, ask Turril for a build that can kill Fraunck. It's the only build that my monk SDs worry about, although things have changed in Middle Earth 



4. Schlix comments:

 a. picking on new players

Send a PM to a DM or tell a DM about this in-game.


 b, miraculous timing vis-a-vis city raids.

I'm going to have to disagree. If playerX2 is playing on the Mordor team. Then gonds raid MM city. Immediately, playerX2, who was on a a level 5 Mordor toon, switches to a level 40 AA Mordor to defend.

This is a golden opportunity and not lame imo ! Now, it would be lame if playerX2 continues to defend over and over and over again against the raiding gonds. One defense is good enough. Defending twice ... ehhhh, I don't know. One would be starting to intrude on the fun of others. 

On the other hand, if playerX3 was on the Gondor team and the Gondor team decides to raid MM city. And then playerX3 leaves the Gondor party and waits 30 min and THEN switches to the Mordor party to defend, then that is definitely lame, but not illegal.

However, if playerX3 sits on the Gondor team and listens to the strategy for the raid on MM city and leaves party just as the Gondor team is assaulting the bridge in order IMMEDIATELY fight the raiding gonds, then this would be ILLEGAL.



 c. credit for same faction killings

Yes, except for the instances where NLawson has "to teach them a lesson," I would like to think that same faction kills were done for reasons of convenience (e.g. level drain/free port). I just have numbers. Unfortunately, the server cannot record players' intent. 

Also, in the past and in the future, all tables (except BH) will include same faction killings. There are just too many toons for me to isolate the same faction kills.

However, for the all-important BH table, I will account for same faction kills as noted in my proposal since there would be fewer toons that would need to be analyzed.

[Khaine]

If you think NLawson is a vet ( joking!), then Flaccid's assertion is correct. See below for a listing of those that were killed by Flaccid (same faction).

Total   Vacct 
1    .denikrut
1    Chaozrulez
1    Dragoneye77
2    lolzcatz
1    mer'loc
13    NLawson
2    Sancho29
1    SlowDown_BR_
3    Thiagow2008
1    Yoghy

Those are the same faction kills (a.k.a free ports out of DP areas). I thought it would be fairly obvious that I meant opposite faction kills.

[Sancho29]

Daccid I am hurt! It appears you and Lawson have been 2-man MM all this time without me!
Hahahaha 13 kills...that just makes me lol when I see it....brings back memories of the past month.

[NLawson]

Point two I agree with. If I'm parking my low levels (I don't have a single built designed to STAY at lvl 25, I just PvP with them at that level when I get the chance), I won't park a Mordor somewhere like crypts. That's just...wow. Maybe at XR, or at Edoras, or Osgil or something....usually when I PvP on those level toons, I stay on the toon until I'm ready to go do something else, like boss hunt or go on a raid or something. I rarely log a toon specifically to kill one person and then leave. If nothing else, I'll take the time to train him a bit too.
It shouldn't be a case of "Oh, NLawson swapped toons to his lvl 20 mage, we have about 20 seconds to get help here before he gets here." - that's just not fair.
Monk SDs are fair. I think they're cheap, and it can be impossible to kill them, but at least you can work out, over time, who the monk SDs are and simply change areas when they log on.
And I'm not singling out Fraunck (though he is clearly one of the most skilled, or one with the most time on his hands XD), but yes I agree it would be stupid for a monk SD to fight toe-to-toe with a grunt. I just get annoyed at the fact that when they come even close to having a tricky fight, they don't wait for you to rest then jump you or something, they just run away at top speed.
Even I don't do that when I PvP on my hipsing toons. I keep trying and trying and trying until it's painfully obvious that the only way this match is going to end is if I get careless and get myself killed, because (for whatever reason) I simply can't hurt whoever it is I'm fighting.
Then I leave.

And yeah amazingly almost all 13 of those same faction kills vs me were things like level drain (in moria, stupid crappy traps) and ports out of MM and such. And then the 6 or so where we were just being stupid.
Mostly me, on that count XD