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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Future Talk (Moderator: Rade)  |  Future Talk: Random discussion area
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Author Topic: Future Talk: Random discussion area  (Read 10227 times)
Rade
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« on: 30 October 2008, 01:00 »

Rules that apply to this thread only!
This is our misfit thread in Future Talk. It doesn't have a specific purpose, and it isn't getting moved, and I don't want to delete it.

The purpose here is to provide a space where you can feel free to post whatever you like in regards to Future Talk posts/ideas/concerns/what-have-yous.
For those ideas that just don't fit in regards to making a new post or won't fit in a different thread.

The only rules that apply in this specific thread are those concerning insulting others too much:
Don't do it, overly offensive material will be removed regardless of other content. Bite your tongues.

Other than that... Have a ball, but don't expect me to read every last detail.
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« Reply #1 on: 30 October 2008, 01:39 »

Are you a Dm now or just a forum moderator?

Rade Edit: Godamn Whisper! Right next to the "Quote" button is "Reply" if it's the first post in a thread, just hit that  Grin
« Last Edit: 30 October 2008, 23:35 by Rade » Logged





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Mistress Zevia Shadowlust
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« Reply #2 on: 30 October 2008, 04:30 »

Quick comment on the mention of a +6 weapon from Terrorble in the Dragon Rant topic. For the love of God man....... If there is one out there already, destroy it. The idea of introducing a +6 is a horrible idea, if anything we should be going lower not higher. And without a doubt, In no way should another be made and added to the mod, UNLESS....

It is STRICTLY... +6 enchantment vs dragons. Suck on that you retarded Dragons. Dragons were EXTINCT in Middle Earth by the way, Bilbo seeing the last of the majestic creatures from what i understand. I see no place for them regardless.
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« Reply #3 on: 30 October 2008, 05:09 »

Rade had this section specifically set up to discuss his personal philosophy, ideas, etc in regards to NWN and GvM.  Somehow I think a few missed that this was simply that and took many of the things as gospel truth.  but yes, forum moderator in this section.

+6weapons.  Good point Zev, would you feel any different if it was otherwise an average-good doubleweapon that requires specific builds and feats and lots of dedication to use competitively?  (+6vs dragons might fill the intent I had)
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« Reply #4 on: 30 October 2008, 10:03 »

+6 weapons really would be the beginning of the end... Dragons bah, my sorcerer can wipe the floor with them armed with a stick  Smiley whats next perma-haste?
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« Reply #5 on: 30 October 2008, 15:56 »

How the hell is a single AB going to unballance the mod? Dragons already HAVE
+6. (the point - BTW) That and insane DR is what makes dragons so popular. Call me a purist, RPer or even a moron but in the interest of "ballance" If one player gets +6 ab then everyone should get it. You act like adding a single AB is going to end the world. That single AB isn't going to help you bring down boses. And if it does, they'll ad +2 to the boss AC or up the DR to compensate.  OH!!! I get it. Your ultra uber dragon wont have a reason for being anymore. His AB above what everyone else gets wont make him special and dragon builds will die out!

Duh- that IS the point. Adding in scripts to bring it down a peg is having an effect on the dragon population.  Dragon builds should be a rarity not the norm.

I got told I dont farm enough. Well maybe I do and maybe I dont. But I dont farm an area because everyone else is farming. As a matter of fact- I avoid farming an area because everyone is farming it. Why? 1% drop rate divided by the # of people in the group. I'll wait my turn and go when people lose interest so that when I "hog" the area, no one really wants to go there anymore and I dont have to worry about a 0.05% chance of actually getting a drop.

So I dont have a dragon. Because EVERYONE has one. I try to stay outside the popular thing to do for this moment.

Which brings me to... When you build a new area, imput new items, whatever is new, people are going to swarm it. And because the swarm makes it too easy, the team has a tendency to over compensate the difficulty so that it dies. I have been going to the same area every day and I see no one there. No one. And its a new area.  I dont have the answers. Just the observation.

Random enuf? Evil
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Mistress Zevia Shadowlust
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« Reply #6 on: 30 October 2008, 16:25 »

Quote
How the hell is a single AB going to unballance the mod? Dragons already HAVE
+6. (the point - BTW) That and insane DR is what makes dragons so popular. Call me a purist, RPer or even a moron but in the interest of "ballance" If one player gets +6 ab then everyone should get it. You act like adding a single AB is going to end the world. That single AB isn't going to help you bring down boses. And if it does, they'll ad +2 to the boss AC or up the DR to compensate.  OH!!! I get it. Your ultra uber dragon wont have a reason for being anymore. His AB above what everyone else gets wont make him special and dragon builds will die out!

Duh- that IS the point. Adding in scripts to bring it down a peg is having an effect on the dragon population.  Dragon builds should be a rarity not the norm.

*Struggling with not Irade's Rules to Bite my Tongue especially in the face of a completely retarded post.* (hmmmm, I wonder if no one will notice how i inadvertently managed to get a stab in there.)


Sigh.... Kermit.  a +6 weapon will bypass ALL +6 soak things whether it has 5 point resist or 1 million resists. So Dragons Tough skin with +6 soak 30 resist would be bypassed. You would have to rely on the standard immunity and resist items.  Its bad enough on the server now that if you have a +5 weapon you can bypass all forms of magical resistance other then things like stone skin, greater stone and premonition. Spells like Shadow shield that off up a +5 soak and some damage resistance are useless, and class specific feats are useless as well since they don't offer soaks that high.  Example, the shadow dancer, shadow armor feat. I still think it would be nice that +4 weapons would be the norm, and only 2 +5 weapons would drop in game. 1 on the Witchking, and one on Aragorn. and even then.... a rare drop. That way you have people wanting to Farm the City's  and you concentrate more PvP rather then dragging them down to Drow where there is no PvP.  If the only weapons on the server that would be +5 are in the hands of the 2 city leaders, THOSE would be the ones wanting to get farmed and this server would be a MUCH better place for it.

Lastly.... Kermit...

Read man..... READ. Knowledge is power, and ignorance is annoying.
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« Reply #7 on: 30 October 2008, 18:16 »

So I dont have a dragon. Because EVERYONE has one. I try to stay outside the popular thing to do for this moment.

I thought it was the fact that you said you COULDN"T build one. Could have sworn that's what you said.
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« Reply #8 on: 30 October 2008, 18:24 »

Down with enhancement weapons! Hail ab bonus weapons!

If the server is really going to get big changes, this is probably one of the first items to be reviewed: max enhancement to +4 and max +5 ab bonus on weapons, so then mage's damages reductions spells become more useful. With +5 weapons, the only way a mage can stand on melee is with ridiculous +immunity/resistant items - which are PERMANENT.
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« Reply #9 on: 30 October 2008, 19:18 »

To my knowledge the attack bonus of a wep= the enchant bonus of a wep when it comes to bypassing damage soaks,

 so if you did remove plus 5 weps  then you need to nerf greater mag. wep. or you just hurt the non caster builds more.... 
  Gmw is why every server pretty much uses  plus 5 weps, and mages needing help in pvp is laughable.
 
  pvp mages have ben the terror of the server since I have gamed here you beeter know you are about to fight one or you are dead its that simple.   

  If you do know   you better have some good anti mage gear on your toon and use it well.

If you want to kill them even then you need to be ready to over come the gs and run to hide and rest that most mages employ when they are loosing!
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« Reply #10 on: 30 October 2008, 20:09 »


Sigh.... Kermit.  a +6 weapon will bypass ALL +6 soak things - You would have to rely on the standard immunity and resist items. 
Read man..... READ. Knowledge is power, and ignorance is annoying.

Yeah yeah. Galadriel Killed WK and Frodo ended the power of the "all seeing eye" by getting the ring to Mt Doom. Happy? Sorry Im not a freak about remembering every detail of a fantasy story.

Take your own advice and read... read what I keep saying- Why should dragon builds be the only ones to get thru 6soak? Here you have a dev team scripting things that nerf the dragon when if you added +6 weapons for everyone, you wouldnt be lagging the server with a needless script.

You make my point for me. Uber PC#1 and Uber PC#2 are battling it out and both have +6soak gear but because PC#2 is a dragon build, he shifts to dragon and now can get thru PC#1's 6soak gear... Awwwww.... too bad for PC#1. He couldnt get thru PC#2's soak gear so he loses. If draggy poo has +6 weapons then everyone should have +6 weapons or there should be +7soak vs dragons to compensate.

Quit whining about the loss of the advantage(cuz that's what the arguement is) and start looking at the ballance. Either that or you have 2 options- script dragon claws to +5 or make the +7soak vs dragons. You make +6 sound so sinister when its actually a ballance. Get real- a Cleric is already uber enough but then you give it dragon shape too? Maybe instead of all that, you script it so that clerics cant be dragons. See- the alternatives are getting nutty. +6 weapons FTW!!!

I thought it was the fact that you said you COULDN"T build one. Could have sworn that's what you said.
I have one- Just got bored with it before getting to dragon. (Cleric20/Druid18/?2 final and currently 20/14 and BOOOORING)
Just havent descided if Monk is worth it anymore.

 


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« Reply #11 on: 30 October 2008, 20:21 »


You make my point for me. Uber PC#1 and Uber PC#2 are battling it out and both have +6soak gear but because PC#2 is a dragon build, he shifts to dragon and now can get thru PC#1's 6soak gear... Awwwww.... too bad for PC#1. He couldnt get thru PC#2's soak gear so he loses. If draggy poo has +6 weapons then everyone should have +6 weapons or there should be +7soak vs dragons to compensate.


If dragons are so hard to kill then dont fight them, even with my dragon I dont. They, meaning dragons, shouldnt be for pvp. they should be for farming only. normally over 1k hp 80+ ac and 65+ ab, whats the point of fighting something like that. there isnt.



 I have one- Just got bored with it before getting to dragon. (Cleric20/Druid18/?2 final and currently 20/14 and BOOOORING)
Just havent descided if Monk is worth it anymore.


I thought that too but Dolly was a great build to lvl very fun for me. If ya dont want a dragon then dont b!tch about what they have and stop trying to fight them. Dolly is a cleric 19 druid 18 monk 3,
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« Reply #12 on: 30 October 2008, 20:28 »

Quote
Yeah yeah. Galadriel Killed WK and Frodo ended the power of the "all seeing eye" by getting the ring to Mt Doom. Happy? Sorry Im not a freak about remembering every detail of a fantasy story.

For the Love of Sauron Kermit.... At least use GOOGLE or something. WRONG again.  my god man... you just keep punishing yourself with everything you say.

Quote
Take your own advice and read... read what I keep saying- Why should dragon builds be the only ones to get thru 6soak? Here you have a dev team scripting things that nerf the dragon when if you added +6 weapons for everyone, you wouldnt be lagging the server with a needless script.

Yet again a "Kermitism"... *which is a uninformed fact that is clearly wrong to everyone else but Kermit himself by definition* There are lots of +6 soak gear for players. up to 15 resist. the issue is that dragons have the +6 weapons as you actually DID mention correctly... (wow.. not sure yet how thats possible..) At any rate, they bypass the players Soak DR. And since we just went thru the whole process of doing the dragon revamp over I doubt many more changes will be implemented in the near future to correct anything else.

Pretty much everything else you said was a complete waste of time as well so I wont further embarrass you, which clearly you do far better by yourself then I could anyhow.  Wow... something your better at then me.... sigh... I'll have to work on that.  Evil  *<----- Thats a Praise Irade.... I think its good to encourage those that have unbelievable talents that clearly you can see here.*
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« Reply #13 on: 30 October 2008, 20:32 »

Yes, +5ab = +5enh as far as bypassing DR goes.  It shouldn't work this way but does.

GMW does cause an issue in a +4 dominated world and I agree, is the reason we probably ended up with our +5 standard.

My thought on a +6 double weapon is that it's very hard to utilize effectively.  I had the other properties kept pretty basic so as to prevent a shifted char to abuse it... but it's a good point about premonition, stoneskin, etc that we've completely squished which could be a reason we ended up with our DR dilemma.  Hmm, I'll definitely have to reconsider.

Oh and boys boys boys, these are the forums not the battlefie.....  Grin

Oh oh and my 2nd edit:  Dragons aren't the only ones with +6.  I'd have to check but manticore claws may tear right thru +20?  You may forget that the epic humanoid drow warrior and kobold have +6 swords.  Not to forget the weapon bearing golem shapes.
« Last Edit: 30 October 2008, 20:41 by Terrorble » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: 30 October 2008, 20:38 »

I'm sure one could easily up the scripting part of the casted spells to say +1 for every 6 caster levels? that would make it so that unless you went with more pure caster characters you would need 30 levels to cast a +5 which would prevent many of the farmer builds that usually go 29 caster 10 pm and bard from casting it, and only those dedicated to the craft would get the +5. 30+ clerics are rare in most cases i think. I've only known of a handful because usually most blend other crap into the mix. If you want to be more extreme about it make it 1 every 7 levels. 35 levels in 1 class makes for more difficult options.

*edit* Didn't realize there were so many shifter +6 options. I've played only 1 shifter character in my whole time here and it was a Rak build which I tired of almost immediately. How many of the other shifted shapes with a +6 have retarded AB,AC,DR,HP,# of Attacks so on so forth. Just curious to see if you would maybe need a weapon tahts +6 vs Dragons AND such and such. *grin*
« Last Edit: 30 October 2008, 21:05 by Mistress Zevia Shadowlust » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: 30 October 2008, 21:35 »

As a side note, it was Eowyn who killed the Witch King of Angmar(though I'm fairly certain she just defeated him, not killed...but I could be wrong)

Also, for bonus points, who prophesied that the WK could not be killed by a man?  Here's a hint: Arwen stole his part in the movies.

And a small, minor detail...technically speaking Golem inadvertently destroyed the ring(at least in the movie...off the top of my head I can't remember if the book was the same)
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« Reply #16 on: 30 October 2008, 21:57 »

The book describes it that gollum had just got the ring back and in his joy he jumped up and down shouting " my precious". He came however to close to the edge  and fell with a loud shriek. It then debates however if gollum dd that on purpose because he loved and hated the ring as he loved and hated himself or something like that or if it was really an accident. In the movie, gollum fell after he got the ring and frodo pressed him over the edge.
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« Reply #17 on: 30 October 2008, 22:21 »

To my knowledge the attack bonus of a wep= the enchant bonus of a wep when it comes to bypassing damage soaks,

 so if you did remove plus 5 weps  then you need to nerf greater mag. wep. or you just hurt the non caster builds more.... 
  Gmw is why every server pretty much uses  plus 5 weps, and mages needing help in pvp is laughable.
 
  pvp mages have ben the terror of the server since I have gamed here you beeter know you are about to fight one or you are dead its that simple.   

  If you do know   you better have some good anti mage gear on your toon and use it well.

If you want to kill them even then you need to be ready to over come the gs and run to hide and rest that most mages employ when they are loosing!

If the server really is gonna be totally reworked meaning that the uber dr gear will be very limited, then the concept of a dr mage will me much harder, if not impossible, to be played again. Right now you can have almost 50% immunity to pierce/slash with about 25 dr, meaning a mage can be easily turned into a tank.

If the dr gear goes away, mages will need a way to soak up damage, and in this scenario the 4 enhanc. limitation is a possibiility. I didn't know about the ab issues, but the gmw can be worked in serveral other ways - either let it be the only way to achieve a +5 enhan. or limit it somehow, for example, let only wizards and sorcerers cast it at full power.
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Rade
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« Reply #18 on: 30 October 2008, 23:31 »

*sigh* I had a feeling this would be the most popular thread  Roll Eyes

Yes Zevia, I did notice. So Zev, Kermit. Cool it. If either one of you sends a PM to me saying you mind the other's posts, do so and I'll tailor it appropriately. I'm trying to stay my hand in this thread, and you both have tough skins, so I'll leave it at that.

To confirm what was said, Damage soak works like this: +X soak Y. X is the Attack Bonus of a weapon, if X is met by a weapon then the damage goes through Y unhindered.
Enhancement bonus grants the wielder +X attack bonus and +X to damage as well of the type of the weapon they are using.

And thanks for clearing that up Terrorble. I am just a moderator, not a DM - I don't want to be one.
« Last Edit: 30 October 2008, 23:35 by Rade » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: 31 October 2008, 15:24 »

Did you know that a Barbarian/Dwarven Defender can get a natural 30+ soak?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #20 on: 31 October 2008, 16:48 »

First- It's been the better part of 30 years since I read the books so after all the the books I've read, movies I've seen and Useful info I have had to maintain, I'm not gonna remember All of the Tolkien events.

Second- I have no issue with Zev's replies. Cant find PvP in the mod so here is ok with me.  Grin
Seriously- I respect Zev's opinion. And I dont mind the minor jabs. I dont take this sort of thing totally personally. I have medication I can blame if all else fails. Evil

And last- Dragons may not be for PvP but they are used for it. More than once I would be winning a fight til the dragon shift occurs. So if Mr. Dragon is gonna be able to hit me with +6 claws or Mr AA has the ability to get to +6 or better(no clue havent ever successfully built one- just what I was told) then I should be able to enjoy +6 weapons as well.

I dont care if it messes with your DR- I dont care if it makes +6soak useless(make +7soak items) and I dont care that several other items would have to be changed to compensate.

Why? there is a growing lag issue that IMHO is being caused by too much scripting. I especially notice it whenever Olle logs in as DM. Many of you dont notice it. Many of you arent playng on a laptop with 1.8ghz 64, less than a gig of Ram and crappy video so you aren't going to notice it. But I am. And if I am, you eventually will. 

Every day I see this and that about ballance and when I make a suggestion toward that I get talked down to like I dont know what Im talking about. Well- here is what I do know- Dragons and AA's enjoy +6 weapons, Scripting causes lag (especially the onheartbeat scripts), and when you start putting in multiple scripts it can cause conflicts that are difficult to find. I am offering an alternate to the scripting. Yes it means having to alter a few other items, yes it means that dragons will be less effective in pvp, yes GMW wont be able to up your +1 to a +6, and yes it means that some bosses will need to be revamped but, it offers a solution that limits scripting, evens out the playing feild for PvP cuz dragons arent going away and neither are AAs. I am not demanding my idea be implimented but I am demanding the respect to understand the idea without the kneejerk emotional response that it would destroy dragons.
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« Reply #21 on: 31 October 2008, 17:51 »

Kermit, I think u have just destroyed your argumentation by mentioning AA's... so, by your logic, AA's with their +15 enhancement bonus unbalance the mod so to balance it I need a +15 weapon as well?

Dragons are only used to pvp when invading cities. In almost 1 year and a half playing here I only remember battling them 2 or 3 times. Besides, its not that they are uberly powerful - they depend on buffs and they can have at a maximum 21 caster levels, remember? So, even if they are "unkillable", at least they won't kill if you know what to do.

MD, curse song + taunt usually gets a dragon in tiny little bits, especially now with 70 ab fights and their ac reduction.

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« Reply #22 on: 31 October 2008, 19:27 »

Dragons having +6 isn't sufficient reason for everyone to get +6 as well. It's like saying that everyone should be able to cast every single mage, bard and cleric spell, be able to sing, and get extra crit range and multiplier too.

Dragons have a weak ab once dispelled, have to unshift to rebuff, is unable to unshift once its hp drops below a certain point except with pots, and the size sometimes gets in its way in pvp.

Ok. it has got a nice +6 weapon (except for the +5 bites), 20/+6 (reduced from 40/+6), free insane saves, hp, some immunities, and an improved chance at KD. They can also back up with lots of heals and GS.

But a mage can beat them. From what duels I've had (and observed) before vs dragons, the winner is the one who gets the first hit from GS (assuming the dragon has IKD). If the mage is especially prepared for KD, the dragon has no chance at all.

Overall, vs most other builds, dragons might be a bit much atm but giving out +6 weapons isn't the way to do it:
We're already hitting the ab cap and +6 makes it easier
It's another example of power creep
There are other ways and we should use them first. The reduction to 20/+6 was a good one. The shapes' ac have also been changed. I haven't tested it but the reduction to +6 dodge will cost them at least 8 ac, and more if they put on boots of varying con levels. Actually, I haven't really fought dragons since the changes, but CharlieBuckett thinks they suck so we'll see how the latest changes have made them.



Also, the local client doesn't run any of the scripts. There's no way that a DM logging on, even IF it did use up extra resources, places an extra strain on your PC. Unless the DM decided to spawn 3000 rats in your immediate vicinity...
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« Reply #23 on: 01 November 2008, 04:24 »

Well it might not be 3000 rats but I spawned half of the Gondor category at crossroads today.  I have to hand it to SteeleWarrior.  The guy takes hits and deaths and luvs it all.

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« Reply #24 on: 01 November 2008, 04:29 »

I can't even believe anyone it still bitching about dragons.  I rather defend MM with a level 31 cleric archer and my dragon.  After a couple dispells your at 48 ab and 84 ac...worthless.  84 ac sounds like alot until you get caught flatfooted and that can happen very easy with a dragon.  Then its good nite gecko.
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