Spells: The barbarian > the scientist?

[Rade]

Strange topic name, but let me work it out. I'm not suggesting this is for nwn1 or 2, but curious to pool the community that reads this.

The barbarian favors ripping into his opponents in a brutal fury at close range with a rusted dagger.
The scientist likes to point his gun from a safe distance and shoot it, providing instant results.

In terms of instant-death spells on the server, where do you stand? This was an idea I was toying with for a while, and it works in some instances. There was once a post that asked for more "nuke" spells for mages and it got me thinking.

So down to it: If all (or some) instant death spells were changed to deal massive damage instead of instant death after a save was failed, would you be in favor?

Example:
Wail of the Banshee deals: 1d10 sonic/caster level (uncapped) and 1d4 negative/caster level
if the target fails save vs death.

If this were the case, should death immunity still prevent the spell? Please, discuss.

[Mistress Zevia Shadowlust]

I personally have always LOATHED instant death spells and would gladly like to see a more USEFUL array of spells out there. With the amount of gear out there now and the many things offering death magic immunity, I would say those spells are basically useless now. I'd like to see them redone for damage to give more spell variety to the server instead of Mordor, Horrid, Icestorm.

As far as save vs death vs death immune items and what happens if you fail, I say make all Insta death spells do 2 damage types, and if you fail a save, you get both, if you make it then one isn't applied. Keep in mind that the 9th level spells should actually be GOOD in comparison to people just using Maximized or Empowered Ice storms. The only spell thats 9th level worth a piss is Mordenkainen's Disjuction and the blade.

If nothing else.... fix some of the crappy spells out there like Power Word Kill, or ANY of the electrical type spells. etc etc. 

Nice Idea. You get my vote.

[Terrorble]

Weeeee that's twice I've voted today  

I agree.

y'know I've had a similar thought process in the back of my head about this for sometime I've never really tried to work out

From PvP perspective, death magic is kinda dull, anticlimactic.  Death immunity simply nulifying half a class of spells is lame but then having a 5% chance of dying on auto-fail 1's while someone spams their finger is lame too.

I like the damage idea.  Even if it's not like the sonic associated with the banshee's wail then it could be the damage associated with someone magically trying to snuff out your life force or tear your spirit from the body (however, whatever).

I  had this idea about having to fail a death save by 5 or more to actually die from it.  I never worked it out but it was damage based where you take 5%hp loss starting at 4 above the DC then 10% at 3 above, then 15% at 2 above, 20% at 1 above, and 25% if you matched the DC.  Then you take an addition 15% for each point below until reaching 5 below and that's 100%.  It requires stuff like modifying death immunity to grant a +5 death save instead of immunity and so that rolling a 1 isn't an autofail but acts like whatever number it is (e.g. you roll 1 with a 28 fort vs DC30 which is one below so 40% life lost)  Anyways it's all complicated and not worked out very well or even a very great idea.

[charliebuckett]

Are we seriously considering making casters MORE powerful???

[Lief]

Heya all,

I hate drown, which can inflict dmg equal to 90 percent of your HP. And I agree that auto-kill spells are a bit "anti-climatical." Anyway, I like Terrorble's idea since it means that casters will have to work harder to get their kills. And so, I extrapolated from his idea. I hope that it retains the essence of what he had proposed. Incidentally, this is my understanding of saves and DC; please correct me if any of it is incorrect.


example: Merlin casts WoB on Owain Glyndwr. Owain currently has 500 hit points and he has no equipped sonic DR gear of any sort.

1. determine the DC to which Owain must beat.

DC = 10 + spell level + ability modifier + feat modifier   
      
9 = spell level for Wail of the Banshee   
    Save: Fortitude Negates
    Spell Resistance: Yes
    Immunity Type: Sonic
    Description: All enemies within the area of effect must succeed at a Fortitude save or die, to a maximum of 1 enemy per caster level.
17 = Merlin's int modifier (from 44 int)
4 = greater spell focus necromancy


DC = 40 = 10 + 9 + 17 + 4


2. determine Owain's saving throw for the WoB

save = d20 + specific base save + ability modifier for base save + bonuses from items (equipped), feats, and effects.


15 = Owain's base fort save            
5 = Owain's con modifier; he has 20 con            
4 = +4 ring of warding (universal saves)            
4 = +4 ammy of prot (universal saves)            

            
save = 1d20 + 28


The proposal is that: 
1. 1 on 1d20 is NOT an autofailure and by extension that 20 on 1d20 is NOT autosuccess.   
2. If Owain's save is less than or equal to the DC, then he has failed his saving throw; see the Outcome column below.
3. Failure means that Owain will suffer SONIC dmg equal to 10% of his CURRENT hit point. This SONIC dmg scales to 100% of his CURRENT hit points when his save is 10 below the number necessary to make a successful save. The number needed to make a successful save in the example below is 41 or higher.
4. For saves of 31 to 40, appropriate gear can minimize any SONIC dmg, e.g. greater breeze cloak or buffered boots.
5. If the number for the save is 11 or lower (i.e. save of 29 or 30), then Owain dies automatically. There is no calculation of SONIC dmg.

nota bene: Owain suffers autodeath with a 1d20 dice roll of 1 and 2. This is not because either numbers are autofailures, but rather because the resulting save of 29 and 30 are 11 and 12, respectively, under the requisite 41.


1d20      Save      Outcome            
1   |   29   |   death            
2   |   30   |   death            
3   |   31   |    100% of current HP = 500 sonic dmg              
4   |   32   |     90% of current HP = 450 sonic dmg              
5   |   33   |     80% of current HP = 400 sonic dmg              
6   |   34   |     70% of current HP = 350 sonic dmg              
7   |   35   |     60% of current HP = 300 sonic dmg              
8   |   36   |     50% of current HP = 250 sonic dmg              
9   |   37   |     40% of current HP = 200 sonic dmg              
10   |   38   |     30% of current HP = 150 sonic dmg              
11   |   39   |     20% of current HP = 100 sonic dmg              
12   |   40   |     10% of current HP =  50 sonic dmg              
13   |   41   |   success            
14   |   42   |   success            
15   |   43   |   success            
16   |   44   |   success            
17   |   45   |   success
18   |   46   |   success
19   |   47   |   success
20   |   48   |   success


Corollary ideas:    
1. change it from 10 to 100 percent "of CURRENT HPs" to "of MAX HPs." I used current hit points because Drown uses current hit points. And using current HPs would lead to as less harsh result than max HPs.
2. change it from sonic dmg to some other dmg or combination of dmg types
3. change it from 10 diff levels of dmg (i.e. 10 percent to 100%) to 5 levels (i.e. 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100%) as Terrorble suggested.
4. apply this mechanism to other autokill spells, including implosion, FoD, etc.

Thanks for reading.

Cheers,


Lief

[Rade]

CharlieBuckett!
Read the 2nd sentence of my first post and then read this extrapolation:
I don't mean to suggest this is a good idea for GvM1. If you changed this now you'd shake things up way too much and place casters on the balance scale carrying leaden weights. I was just curious where the attitudes lie.

So to answer your question: NO, we are not seriously considering making casters more powerful.

[Endlessorrow]

I originaly posted in favor of giving casters some nuke options, I dont think changing death spells would be as efective as boosting meteor swarm, greater ruin and hellball so that the epic feats were worth taking and giving a decent option for 9th lvl offensive spell.

[charliebuckett]

RADE!!! Yes I did read your 1st post and then read all this too...

spells do 2 damage types, and if you fail a save, you get both, if you make it then one isn't applied. Keep in mind that the 9th level spells should actually be GOOD in comparison to people just using Maximized or Empowered Ice storms.

I originaly posted in favor of giving casters some nuke options They already have nukes its called horrids....   http://or IGMS

I like the damage idea.  Even if it's not like the sonic associated with the banshee's wail then it could be the damage associated with someone magically trying to snuff out your life force or tear your spirit from the body (however, whatever).

Not gonna bother reposting marcus' extra long posts...But again it seems you or they (WHOMEVER) is suggesting making the one of the most powerful classes MORE powerful.  It makes no since all you all will do later is bitch that casters are too powerful...

[ollebroc]

Caster's will remain powerful if thier spells can kill ya instantly.

Soon items with death magic immunity or any spell immunity will be as rare as a Snipe siting. You can stand there and die instantly or take a chance on some damage instead and still fight back.

Now we like to have a cap on the amount of damage spells can make, cept a couple(drown and Implosion). Those 2 probably will just drain your current lifeforce away, with a small chance of instant kill.

Keep Wierd the way it is for Zevia. 

[KrazyKuban]

If immunity items are going away, then I say absolutely give them damage instead.  If you make the save, then it doesn't matter anyway.


So what do you prefer, CHARLIE?!  Boom you're dead, or BOOM you're not quite dead yet and might have a chance.?

[Mistress Zevia Shadowlust]

Keep Wierd the way it is for Zevia.  Grin

You know.... I've been waiting about 2 years for an item to come along that would mesh with the set up I usually use and allow me to take something ELSE off or readjust what I'm wearing to fit the item into the build to prevent that abomination of a spell. Who do I have to pay off to ensure that will work around here? 

[charliebuckett]

Who me?? I see nothing other than the whining and bitching that will happen because casters are too powerful....which will in turn be over compensated for by  enhancements in other classes etc etc etc...Then SHAZAM we are right back to where we are .....now.

[Terrorble]

Y'know Middle Earth loremasters tell me of someone making that item Zev, but just like that pesky Ring it got lost in an area we don't have...and the little freak that claims to own it makes Gollum look mildly obsessed.  Good luck with that  

While I still fully agree with the topic premise, I still don't know completely about the effects of this idea in actual practice.  Being able to do damage like that could be incredibly abusive to npcs and many player build types.  It's always sounded good but I'd have to play around with something like this for a while before being any more serious about it than just discussion.

Now, adding some (not a lot) sonic to wail or damage like how finger of death works and to other death magic seems ok.  To muddy the situation further this could be a wizard class only effect and or be based on taking focus feats in necromancy (i.e. you don't get the nice benefits without a bit of dedication).  I say wiz only because they have a lower ability to spam spells for damage and their dedication to the arcane in some way makes sense that they could glean more from the same spells.

[Redaurora]

I don't quite understand the 'casters are op' part of the thread.

Don't you mean, PMs are OP?

The only reason my level 23 mage survives in pvp is because of hide in plain sight, or just simply severely outgearing my opponent.


If you die to death magic, or igms its your own fault (Atm). Stoning and domination I don't hear any complaining about (for some reason).

[Kermit]

I've always hated insta death anything. And if the barbarians Dev crit is gone-

Why is it when I made this point a long time ago I was shot down?

Make the instadeath spells do dmg instead of kill is a great idea.

[Abimael]

Example:
Wail of the Banshee deals: 1d10 sonic/caster level (uncapped) and 1d4 negative/caster level
if the target fails save vs death.

If those are the real numbers beeing thought, I think this is worse than instant death. At least with them you can get immunity, and good saves makes you get 5% of failing to a death spell. The mage is also forced to spend castings of 9th level spells, without doing any damage, until the victim fails if he chooses the instant death way.

Doing this, at the worst case scenario, will give 1d10 / lvl... a 29 sorc will get 29d10... 10-290 with 1 spell... 145 medium damage... that mage, hasted, will be able to do +500 damage to *everything* in the area, with the only good way to prevent it beeing the Energy Buffer, and always doing damage regardless of succeeding/failing saves.

On a side note, there is nothing more satisfying for a necromancer than killing mobs with the conjuration of just 1 spell 

[ollebroc]

Any spell that would deal damage the way Wails is proposed would be subject to a 150 point damage cap.
Carry lots of Wizard Necro Rings. 

[Rade]

It might seem ridiculous, and considering the state of the server I'd say it is. This was sort of theoretical, but I wasn't totally out to lunch.
The idea was that damage would only be applied if the save was failed, so 5% on a target with high saves is still realistic.
I did forget that WoB is an area of effect spell, and as such there would probably be a damage cap; and if I'm not mistaken it currently gets every target in the area of effect, which is done by while loop with lots of if statements, that could be capped as well (i.e: maximum number of targets in area).

So yeah: Damage for a level 29 caster (typical) is 29d10 sonic (290 max) and 29d4 negative (116 negative), which cannot be maximized, empowered, what have you, (406 max, and this is assuming you're friggin' lucky! Mean of that is 203 per target) and they still have to fail a save vs death.
Compare that to IGMS, which maximized can do 240 magical damage per spell, or 480 magical per round, I don't think it's that bad.

Regardless, it's still just an idea. Thanks for the contributions on it so far.

[Redaurora]

I did forget that WoB is an area of effect spell, and as such there would probably be a damage cap; and if I'm not mistaken it currently gets every target in the area of effect, which is done by while loop with lots of if statements, that could be capped as well (i.e: maximum number of targets in area).

Wail is already limited number of targets; 1 per caster level.


a 5th lvl cleric can make himself immune to the wail of the banshee used in your example. (other than death immune)


An interesting note; a wizard is [generally] seen as most effective in generic pnp as a status effect dealer, termed save-or-die[lose] (not necessarily literal death, sleep, dominate monster or hold monster are examples here) or save-or-suck (blindess/deafness, wof, colour spray).

Status effects would be far more interesting, maybe on wail you could have permanent deafness (20% arcane failure chance, and autofail on listen checks) no save, along with being stunned [or dazed] for a couple of rounds or something (on failed will save) + that negative energy damage (half damage on fort save).

Alternatively, keep that wail the way u suggested, but make it affect everyone in the area (including the caster!)

Id also love to say that it would be a VERY good idea (if possible) to remove the save (it never was meant to have one, and if you look, nwn2s one doesn't have one [they did it properly yay!]) from enervation and energy drain.

AND any conjuration NEVAR ALLOWS SPELL RESISTANCE (except in nwn for, im assuming, the same strange reason enervation et al has a save). Web, grease, etc im looking @ u!