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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Future Talk (Moderator: Rade)  |  A heal kit world
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Author Topic: A heal kit world  (Read 12672 times)
Terrorble
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« on: 18 November 2008, 18:49 »

Obviously a big player in our game mechanics in GvM.  Pros/cons?  Problems/alternatives?
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Abimael
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« Reply #1 on: 18 November 2008, 23:02 »

For pvm and farming a heal kit is obviously extremely important. I've lost control of how many times I've killed bosses with a dr sorc by standing still and healing with kits.

For pvp, it sucks. A lot. I've lost control of how many times I've put enemies on near death and then they throw up a invis, heal, attack again. It gets on my nerves, but is part of the game I guess.
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KrazyKuban
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« Reply #2 on: 19 November 2008, 04:23 »

PvM, its a pretty nice asset.  At the same time, it makes things possible with uber ridiculous heal that might not otherwise be possible and would otherwise require a team.  If we're trying to emphasize team-play, heal kits of the +10 variety need to go.  +1 at most.

For PvP, they are retarded.  Now, that's not to say I have not utilized them before, but there is something ridiculously irritating about seeing a High-HP, High-DR PM toon stand there and just heal heal heal heal heal heal for an hour while you smack on them, and either it ends in a stalemate, or an army of teammates show up.  There should either be a limit, a timer, or just a plain restriction
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Whisper
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« Reply #3 on: 19 November 2008, 06:59 »

Heal kits are lame, they should take long and be a trickling affect.
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Noruas
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« Reply #4 on: 19 November 2008, 10:03 »

I think our healing pvp champion (froggies in 6 letters) will disagree any limitation, so yes, restrict their use in pvp!!!!
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« Reply #5 on: 19 November 2008, 10:17 »

Geez not more changes, like everything else in the game good or bad lets just live with them. If you restrict or nerf the heal kits people will just build more clerics as it will make shield mages useless. Grooth (or whisper as is the case) will just have us fighting with sticks wearing jumpers and using elastoplasts to stick on any bruises we get, hes a notorious cleric hater  Grin.

Face facts, dragons and pms rule on the server and if they didnt we would never kill a boss (some of them we cant kill anyway) in the above example instead of invis, heal and fight people would just invis and bugger off if you toon was any good you would be able to see invis anyway and you would be able to do damage quicker than they can heal as happened the other night when my pm/sor was beaten into the ground by a dragon.

You could argue change and nerfing for practically everything but in the end it just makes people want to leave, things annoy me in game but over the years you learn to adapt to things the way they are.

The general rule is to have fun, your not gonna do that by having to rest every 2 mins or because it takes an age to heal yourself. What toon doesnt need heal packs +10? I can understand it if it was non-stop pvp but it isnt so dont change things to suit people with certain toons (and top equip), they already have too much of an edge.

Changing heal kits is a Terroble suggestion  wink
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ollebroc
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« Reply #6 on: 19 November 2008, 16:01 »

Unfortunately, we can't change Healkits, but we can change thier.............................availability.   Evil
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« Reply #7 on: 19 November 2008, 21:03 »

So we want another change to discourage the 6 people left who do play?   Melee type toons that already have trouble keeping healed (becuase you can't have 40 points in every cat) will have even more trouble.  And this would make newer player die even faster and be more discouraged.

I have never had that much problem getting a pvp kill becuase not that many people spam heal kits.  Kermit and Marcus come to mind but thats about it.
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locmer
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« Reply #8 on: 19 November 2008, 23:55 »

Got to agree with Charlie here (on the first paragraph).

What up with you guys, do we keep nerving everything that we can't win from.

We will have nothing left if we keep this up.

Every time I hear some guys can't win PvP's cause of something that is supposedly to be lame,
it either vanishes form the server or gets nerfed all togheter.

Every attempt to balance things, ends up in another unbalance, or so it seems.

Now were are talking about the most common thing on the server *healkits*.

In any event, I don't see the problem with them.
But then I don't win that much PvP.  crybaby2

So... since I got that out of me chest

Cheers!
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« Reply #9 on: 20 November 2008, 00:40 »

  I always thought that "non magical" heal kits should be less effective than magical spells and potions,  Miraculous healers should in effect be able to heal faster/better than even the best mundane skill based healers.

  Answer possibly is to cap bandage damage healing to 6 or so per heal kit! making  it still slightly better than the cantrip heal,     
   
   I know you said kit effects cant be changed ollie but I have played in servers with decreased heal kit benefit...... Is this the result of a hack?



   { Edit   sp.}
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Wake of death
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« Reply #10 on: 20 November 2008, 01:25 »

Hello,

     If you are going to be "fixing" the heal kits then will DP be on more often? If they are harder to get or not as effective then PvM, which I understand isnt the primary goal of this server, will be harder to do. PvM is how we get our gear. Keep this up and the max number needed for this server will not need to be higher then 10 at best

Thanks
Wake
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Terrorble
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« Reply #11 on: 20 November 2008, 04:06 »

Did I say I was changing them or even had the ability to do so?  I'm just looking for opinions without jabs at us.  At least you guys are clear.

On a different note, I spent some time checking out DEX since I've had several recommendations for it recently and in the past.  Haven't had a lot of time to get into it but it's rather amusing, they have threads in their forums moaning about every little change and detail too.  Maybe players are meant to be at continual odds with the devs everywhere and devs should just accept the facts of life.
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Rabbac
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« Reply #12 on: 20 November 2008, 09:55 »

lol sorry terroble i know your just asking a question didnt mean to jump all over you  Grin

Charlies right though, 6 people???!! What you complaining about thats a crowd  huh
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« Reply #13 on: 20 November 2008, 10:34 »

...it will make shield mages useless.

eh? so what about that cleric/druid in gs standing next to the mage with 10 heals, 19 mass heals, 8 greater restorations and 15 edoras ammys doing? lolol
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tonoplast
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« Reply #14 on: 20 November 2008, 19:36 »

Edoras Mass Heal Ammy ftw!
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locmer
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« Reply #15 on: 20 November 2008, 20:22 »

Oh my, never intended to jab at you guys Terrorble.
But I think Rabbac has a point in his earlier post.

Don't be mistaken, I'm pro-renewing the mod. In the end it will only keep things interesting.
But the changes being made are goin so fast sometimes, that maybe some of us can hardly keep up.

For example, from the 10 toons I got, 4 are not what they were before changes were made.
Simply making them less effective. Where the other six are fairly new.

Like Rabbac said I try to adept, but sometimes it seems I don't even have the chance
to use a build for what I build it for in the first place.

But you should know already that I like most of the work you guys are doing on the mod.

Like you said, you were asking for Pros and Cons. Not just Pros.
Don't take it too heavily.
Just give us (or me) time to breathe and keep up the good work. laugh

In the mean time I'll try to think of alternitives.

Cheers
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Terrorble
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« Reply #16 on: 20 November 2008, 20:32 »

Yes, you guys are right.  The ability to tinker and change I guess shouldn't equate to tinkering and changing for the sake of being able to.  I can see it leads to a lot of instability and frustration.


PS
I should wait until after I take a test to post, it's much nicer then.  Tongue
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Rade
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« Reply #17 on: 21 November 2008, 04:45 »

It's one of those things GvM players grew up with in a sense. When you died a lot, or built your first farmer, the best advice you ever got was "buy healkits". To remove it now is like chopping off a limb - albeit most cheap tactics are of this nature.

Personally I don't see this being of much use for GvM1... but GvM2, maybe...

I like how it is done on the server "City of Arabel". Healkits in the traditional nwn sense are not available; instead they have healbags that are a unique-self-power scripted item. What they do is a standard heal roll, and they will heal that damage gradually over a certain time through regeneration.
Example: Johnny uses healkit and rolls 18 + his skill modifier of 10. His total roll is 28; he will heal 7 HP over 4 rounds.

Which gives clerics/druids the healing advantage of instant-heals. We however have killed the healing roll of clerics and druids, replacing them with kits and amulets; their spells now only useful for shifters to exploit and the occasional use outside of combat.
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« Reply #18 on: 21 November 2008, 07:48 »

WTF are you people smoking? YOU HAVE KILLED THE SERVER!!! And you are making it worse!

I told you- 2 years ago when I joined this server- be careful how much you nerf things or you'll kill it. Guess what... YOU DID!

Try and remember- K.I.S.S. Kepp It Simple Stupid.

You have successfully made this an ALL item no build server. 90% of the builds out there are built AROUND ITEMS. Now you wanna take away the most important item in the game? I warned you about nerfing HIPS, I warned you about nerfing other things. Now you have hnerfed the fun out of the server completely.

Instead of worrying about nerfing healing kits, you need to nerf the nerfing. Undo some of what you have done. GvM was awesome when I first got here. Now its set up to be the good ol' boys club and only those that have an in can get the items. NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY IF THEY CANT WIN ONCE IN A WHILE!!!

And in trying to nerf everything you are making that an impossiblity both in NPC and PvP encounters. Y'all need to wake up and smell your own arrogance thinking that everything you do is golden. I hate to be outright mean here but y'all screwed up GvM BAD.

The good news is it's fixable. And instead of erfing the game, why not just ban the abusers?

GS was nerfed because of Max, Rules were nerfed because of people bending the unwritten parts of it, hips was nerf because it gets spammed. FFS just stop. Jackasses that cant be real people, kick em out. Y'all need to undo some of what you've done to breathe life back into the place. And I dont think GvM2 is gonna fare any better. My understanding is that NwN2 is a virtual flop- dunno- dont have it. But if you plan on screwing it up as bad as you have GvM1, it will be.

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« Reply #19 on: 21 November 2008, 11:37 »

Heal kits are too good in the context of the DR we have. With the reduction in DR after the wipe, healing will be more important. Not sure if kits will still be able to keep up (depends on the new NPCs) but if they're limited or removed then clerics/druids will become more useful. This could be a good or bad thing. There are still potions to fall back on, but they cover only ~60hp/round while triggering AOOs and so are only good for out-of-combat healing.

We shouldn't worry too much about PvM difficulty since it is easier to tweak in a vacuum (still takes dev time though); PvP balance is more important. What's the obsession with being able to solo every single boss anyway?

The amulets will be gone. They're simply ridiculous anyway: two of us at ~lv30 farmed up 15-20 in 2 days. Not sure if Kell's ring will be gone too, but I think it's fine at 50hp for a full round, about the same as with pots.

Post-wipe, it is probably better to leave/limit kits initially, maybe a per-reset bunch with scav like the surgeon's kits (could still leave those +25 ones or change them, i dunno), and add them back into shops if such a decision is taken. The reverse is much harder to do, since such talk means some people (probably myself included) will stock up on kits once the wipe occurs, unless there's a way of removing old stocks of kits.

If the kits are removed though, levelling speed will drop somewhat, so I'd ask that the xp rate be raised as well were this the case :p
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KrazyKuban
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« Reply #20 on: 21 November 2008, 16:04 »

Notice the two posts above me.  Notice the differences in reaction and reasoning.  Makes ya wonder, eh?

I agree completely with BaaRam.  With the DR situation as it is, +10 heal kits are just TOO good.  Now I'm all for making the life of a noob easier, but the fact of the matter is that most noobs don't even USE heal kits until they're suggested by a vet.  So it doesn't effect that area too too much.

If everything that has been speculated about the wipe (general powering down of the magic level, a reset of a lot of the "nerfs"(CHANGES)  BECAUSE of the power-down, etc) then I think it would be just fine to remove heal kits.  OR, as Rade was mentioning, see if they cannot be scripted to be a gradual healing, as opposed to an instantaneous heal.

The arguments FOR keeping the heal kits are because it makes you life easier, it makes certain builds work better, it lets you solo things.  Well, excuse me for jumping up and down on the proverbial couch, but were we not trying to make this more TEAM oriented?  I have never been comfortable with the idea of being able to solo bosses, despite doing it myself.  So why should we let it be so convenient?

On another note, might I add that I'm rather fond of the way Antiworld handles healing.  Granted, that is a Purely PvP server and rather balanced I might add.  Stop on by if you're nervous or skeptical about "wasting time" playing on GvM - decent group of folks who don't get all riled up by PvP 'cause that's all there is.
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« Reply #21 on: 21 November 2008, 16:31 »

Hmm intresting points KK but you have to remember not everyone is suited to your style of play.

Yes i think the main staying power of GvM has been that the 2 factions party together and you help out your team mates but i like the fact that soloing is also a viable option. I only get to play maybe a couple of hours on a night time hence i usually dont bother to team up with people and prefer to put a couple of hours mucking around on my own. I think there a few like me who like thier own company but join in on the party chat and rescue missions. If i wanted to play in a team i would join one of those party servers, but i don't.

I still know know what the fuss is about in regards to heal kits, yes they can make pm/sorc had to beat but thats what a shield mage is about? I still die often enough to make me aware of my mortality. Even without heal kits i would still be able to kill pvp due to my massive hps and regen items.. like i say, people adapt no matter what nerfs come along, hence, why bother. I would just build a sorc/pm/cleric and use heals instead giving me another unfair advantage on ever toon who no longer has heal kits.

If the heal kits were a problem then hardly anyone would die, as for pvp both parties have them so its even!

SO NO KK. Lets not go down the road of trying to instigate a team orientated server, its not what it was supposed to be. Lets keep the choice even if its not for you.  BangHead
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« Reply #22 on: 21 November 2008, 16:36 »

There are no plans to remove Healkits.  :pompom:

Most likely you won't be able to buy the +10's in the local temple, but from somewhere else. Surgeon Kit's will remain limited.  bs
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Rabbac
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« Reply #23 on: 21 November 2008, 16:38 »

 toothy4 Hurray .. now that sounds a better plan
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Rade
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« Reply #24 on: 23 November 2008, 00:44 »

And I dont think GvM2 is gonna fare any better. My understanding is that NwN2 is a virtual flop- dunno- dont have it. But if you plan on screwing it up as bad as you have GvM1, it will be.

I really don't like your post Kermit, but I'm willing to let it stay here for the time. It's unnecessarily standoffish and a wild shot at trolling. For example, the above quote. The GvM2 team is not the same as GvM1. It is also a blank slate right now in terms of nerfing, and the game rules are different than nwn1. Please calm yourself before posting wild accusations.
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