"Why do YOU play?" - The Nep Report

[Nep]

Hello and welcome to the first edition of the Nep Report.

What's "The Nep Report" you ask? Well, it is a compilation of thoughts and opinions put together by me about the server. I have been discussing about the well being of the server with several people  and I wanted to put it all in one place and maybe get a thing started.

The Situation
First off, I wanna say that the server is sweet and that my intentions here tonight aren't to whine endlessly about stuff. I am simply trying to look forward and propose some simple yet effective ways to improve this place.

The first reaction I expect is: "Well I didn't know there was something wrong with the server..."

And to that I will reply that there isn't something wrong with the server... depending on why you play.

Let me cut to the chase and tell you guys why I play. I play to win. That is no secret and I can say that I've been doing quite a bit of that since I came back. I'm not boasting or flexing my insane web-muscles... I'm just saying that I've basically accomplished what I set out to do when I re-joined this fine community.
Many will say: "I play to have fun. I don't really care if I win or lose. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose." Although this statement is totally legitimate, I don't think it reflects the true reason why most people play. Nobody logs in a toon to get murdered and nobody logs in the server to not have fun. We all log in to have fun and win.

So does the server deliver? Do you guys have fun? During the few years I've played at GvM, I can safely say that I've had tons of fun. I love PvP, I love raiding cities, I love a great deal of things about this place. However, something has come up recently. I've realized that the server has lost some of its luster and it has become a little harder for me to enjoy it. The other day I stopped and tried to find why I wasn't enjoying it as much as before and it dawned on me: How and how much you play is much less important than WHY you play.
Most of my logs these days have been for farming. I have a level 40 mage that's more or less unkillable so I just roam around and farm as much gear as I possibly can. I don't particularly enjoy farming. What I enjoy is possessing stuff that's valuable. I enjoy having an item that the next person doesn't have, not because I'm greedy or anything, simply because it will make me stronger than them and I will win more...
Now the recent wipe and server changes have attempted to even out the field. Making the unkillable toons more killable, making the god-awful classes less awful. I have to say that it has done a decent job at that. But in doing so, it has alienated an important class of player: The Freaks. (more on that later)

The Problem
If you play GvM, you know that leveling is hard. it's long, it's painful, it's just awful. So why do we do it? Why do we play? Do we play so we can go to a cave and whack 300 zombies on the head and get 1 level so that we can start over again except this time we need to whack 600 zombies? It's not why I play, and I'm guessing that it's not why you play either.

It used to be I didn't mind thrashing zombies for 4 hours because the carrot at the end was big and juicy: A build that was invincible, a blade that could rip Aragorn's ass in two... the kind of super duper stuff that would keep you logged in until 4am... Well here's the thing... that thrill is gone.

I'm not sure if most of you can relate to the point I'm trying to make. If you don't have a level 40 char, I'm guessing you think I'm just complaining about not being uber anymore and while there is some truth to that, the actual reason is much more complicated.
I believe that as of today, the number of 40s on GvM is below 20. Take out addict players and DM players and I think this numbers drops below 5... if not 0.
I know 2 players that have told me directly that they don't play here anymore because the place has lost its thrill. Those two player each have a level 40 char.
You see the problem is that we have this great motivation to level to 40 because we think that once we hit 40, it will be like when we hit that sweet lvl 20... New gear! New immunities, crazy skills... The truth is, if you are bored with your char at level 30, chances are you will be just the same at 40 (with only a few exceptions i.e. dragons etc..)

So why play?

The Solution
Here are a few potential solutions I have discussed over the past weeks with people/DM:

1. Increase drop rate of items:
That would be nice. Getting more stuff out of our endless grinds would be lovely. There is a good chance that our toons would get saturated with junk but there's always the party chest. It would also lessen the value of raids and encourage more farming but when you look at it, it's not like the server is full of raid parties these days.

2. Introduce better items:
Now that would be a little silly as the main purpose of the wipe was to effectively reduce the ubeness of items.

3. Introduce perma-haste items:
I've discussed this briefly with the higher authorities and it appears to be a big nono. I think it would be a good thing (especially in a world where you need to run 15 big maps to turn in a quest).
A simple concept I saw on another server was this: Items with perma-haste also give -4AC. This way those who actually use the spell still get an edge. Not as big as Haste vs. no Haste but still a nice edge.

4. Stop whining and just play you big cry-baby:
Now that may seem like a good solution at first but it won't solve the problem (and yes I do believe there is a problem). By voicing my opinions and engaging the dialogue, I am attempting to make this place more fun and more enjoyable. It would be very easy for me to just shut up and continue my farming/PvP massacre. I choose to step up and address what I think are important issues. The easy way out would be to shut up.

5. Increasing XP:
I put this one last because I think it's the key. As I mention this, I can already see the dev team reaching for that giant sign that says "NO!"... but hear me out.
Here are a few questions (cleverly formulated to reinforce my point of course):
- Should we encourage party play or solo play?
- Should we encourage raiding cities or grinding zombies?
- When you think of a new fun build, do you imagine how cool it will be at level 5 or 40?
- Do you enjoy spending 80% of your gaming time doing the same thing?
- and last but not least: Why do you play?

I play to have fun. I play to have fun with others people. I play to have fun killing other people. I play to have fun with other people while killing other people.
My point is simple, I enjoy cheap, rewarding, simple fun.
GvM is turning into an expensive (time), frustrating (no valuable drops from impossible bosses), simple fun. 1 out of 3 isn't gonna cut it.

What I suggest is a big payout. A reward for the player that likes to play. A reward for the player that doesn't know much about GvM/NWN but loves to play.
The ability to make a build, find out that it sucks horribly and not have your spirit crushed because you just spend the last 3 months leveling a useless char...

Final Word
If people understand what I wrote the way I intended it, I think things can change for the better. I usually don't get much involved in dev or even forums but it turns out that I'd rather spend an hour writing this piece than spend an hour playing... That to me is already quite revealing...

So there you have it... my silly report...


... so how about it? Why do YOU play?

[parknutz]

I play at GvM so Nep can continually beat my behind into the ground. I also play to ham it up with some of my pals that I  have known while playing here for the past couple years.

My main reason isn't so much different than Nep's really. I play to level up and kill and hopefully have the best items in the game before someone else. I don't farm as much as I used to simply becuase the reward is little and the risk is higher. Farming in groups is rough waiting for one specific drop then only to lose it in a roll.

I also play here because of the ever changing environment. This mod continues to grow with positives and negatives. Let's face it which mod doesn't have both? I would love to see Nep's 5th point get carried out. Who wouldn't love faster leveling with how much time we can invest into the game these days?  Anyway thats why I play.

[CARNAGE]

Wow Nep

Well if im gona be honest i do agree on quite some of that stuff and have probably loads of other suggestions.

Why i play?
Well i play because i also want an uber char at lvl 40 that hopefully is just that little better than the rest so i will win when confronted in pvp. I farm just to get those uber gears as they might improve my char or i find an item worth making a whole new character around.

Ive been here so long and played and i know when the fun slowly started to disaper.
I remember the stuff very well it was when they added the script against greater sanctuary in the citys and then it just escalated from there.
Before that you allways hade some from each side sneaked in to their opponents citys and almost allways they got sen by a player and then the real pvp hunt started.
This mod when it was at its prime belive it or not was concentrated around minas morgul and minas tirith, players would farm gear elsewhere for days, weeks even months so that in the end when they hade their build, they could make an attack against the city. When attacking the resistance from npc´s where quite the challange but not uber hard as the main defending where comming from the players running there to kill the intruder or logging their uber toon to look him up (i do remember the pulse rushing) And if the ene my got killed by npc´s or players they just rezed him and escorted him out of city..................where he would start over hehe
I would say, thats not posible with to days rules and changes.

well blah blah, here i have the small part of my suggestions.

Reinstate the citys to work as they did before.
Have free port back to city only for fast transfer there to defend.
Make a real uber high exp head quest in citys, witchking-aragorn for 10-15k exp
Reinstate all spells exept the shift changes (Only maybe some adjustements)
Then have a look true every class and see what changes can be done to improve.
(For example: i think the way you have gone with barb rage is on the way but not in goal.
the bonuses are ok but when you come to the last rage in line, the mighty rage, my beliving is that it should have been +5 ab and maybe +10 slashing damage and no ac penalty leave that for greater rage as is. to get to the point where you can take mighty rage you have to offer most evrything by themeans you must have 21 con, 21 str and 20 lvl barbarian.
Black guard another example: script their bulls to give bonuses like +5 ab and 5 magic damage (req 15 bg lvls or epic fiendish servant i think its called) along with the +1 ab at every 5 lvl and they would come to their rights along with pallys.)
This one is very important to the fun and i belive its already done. NO NPC/BOSS SHOULD BE USING ITEMS THAT THE PLAYERS CANT USE, that way you as a player know that you can get any stuff they where as a drop. If the bosses need immunity, more damage and so on that can be fixed in the creature change.
Another thing i belive have made everything worse is all damn rules, they are just growing and growing and GROOOOWING.
Simple and plain, its a pvp server, you have to rez a opponent killed in pvp, can only attack those of easy or above lvl of your self, by attacking any one of above lvl like impossible you are then a free target for them. this should no be abused by summons.
Thats it, damn people you allways have attack of opportunity that might get you killed by an imp but then he just rez and on with it.

ITEMS oh what a pain and pleasure
I would have like this

Enhancement up to 5
AB up to max 5
Ac up to max 7
Up to +2d12 damage depending on weapon size on Acid, Cold, Divine, Electrical, Fire, Magical, Negative energy, Positive energy, Sonic, Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning.
Ability bonus up to +8
Bonus spell slots maximum 2 for each spell lvl and item
Damage reduction up to +6/15
Damage resistance up to 10/-
Damage immunity up to 10%
All bonus feats
No immunitys to spell school (add save bonuses insted)
Keen
Light
Massive crits up to +20/2d12
Haste ( i would suggest full use of this but it seems to be to hard on here and have always been so insted items with haste spell on maybe lvl 10)
Visual effect
All skill bonuses up to max 15 per item
Regen up to max 5 per item

Then there are so many fun things that can be done, on hit darkfire at lvl something for example:)
And please stop putting up all requierments this and that to use on every thing, some but sparely.

All the above are as i see max what should be possible to have on an item and offcourse i havent covered all upp there.

The mod is for the players to go to have a fun time and i have to say, its no fun to play weeks, months to get a +4 sword with 2d8 sonic, keen on if you know what i mean.
Long back Chronos once showed me what sword the peace keeper droped, resulting in me attacking and killing him severl times a day for nearly 6 months before i got that damn sword, but at that time it was worth it:) Unsure about stats but i think it was this

Divine inspiration
Bastard sword
Enhanced +5
Keen
2d8 divine
2d8 massive crits
Holy avenger

Think i should stop here as i know this post nep started will be a hot one, allways does. sometimes you get the dms to get angry, they have after all spent conciderble time in building. Well i have been there done that and this posts will never disaper no mather what you make in the mod:)

What would be next to take the mod to new heights after this then.
Legendary lvls and subraces...........................................

End of transmition

[Akuma-Demon]

Eek, and heres me thinking that Nep had trouble spelling his name!!  (knew i should have build a Mordor monk to kill zapp  )

Server Wipe anyone?  That always goes down well... 

Now i'm all for people putting up thier opinions but if Nep and Carnage and others have played here for a good few years then they know that we ALWAYS have these discussions/rants/whines. Not that i dont enjoy them and in the past any suggestions for improvements/changes/nerfs are either ignored/ridiculed by others/or on a rare occassion implemented.

It seems we have went full circule again, we started with the basics were the DM's wernt intrested in players suggestions as it was the DMs who had a very definite idea of what they wanted to do and how to do it which ended up being a mess with a million areas, uncontrolled uber items and eventually practically no players!. Now we have a staff who are willing to listen and tried to get the server back to basics (with a good many nerfs to boot). Improved? I dont know, different, certainly.

Your reasons for playing are the same as most peoples kill everything and getting everything, its the same as the old D&D game and probably always will be peoples aim regardless of what changes are made and the same arguments are made, items to hard to get, xp to hard to get, items to easy to get, xp to easy (you get the idea!). As for your point about lvl 40 toons, well once you reach that as always your toons either a farmer or left in the vault forgotten, its always been that way and due to the lack of players its unlikely that your gonna use it strictly for pvp. Solution, a lvl 40 area which requires party play (never enough players for that) but then again your only gonna do that for drops as xp and the fun of it isnt gonna tempt you.

Looking at your solutions, increase drops thats either gonna be alot of junk or uberish items niether of which has worked in the past and again is just farming. Better items, you already answered that one. Perma haste, lol you dont know how many times thats been suggested and rejected and for my thinking with good cause, i think the solution to this one is an increase in portals and things to jump to different areas going from mordor to isengaurd is a pain. 4. we all get accused of that lol
Increasing xp. hmm tricky one, the slow grind or the easy lvling to 40 then like above you have a farmer or an obsolete toon so you probably loose intrest in a toon quicker, i think you just have to find the balance. The helms deep big xp is the way forward possibly with more big xp quests.

The big problem for this is the amount of different players we have, some have little time and like to solo others have hours and hours and like to party, unfortunately i fall into the first category and therefore unlikely to continue to play if its just party orientated. I think if its just party then you might as well join the mega grind rp servers or alternatively if its hitting lvl 40 asap then the total pvp servers. Over the years i think this server has kept me interested by being in the middle, not to fast and not too slow (although i agree it has got considerably slower).

You play for cheap, rewarding, simple fun but too cheap, too rewarding and your back to pre-wipe and will get bored of it easily and the same i suppose with expensive, unrewarding, simple fun. Is the balance ever gonna suit all or indeed every going to be possible? NO probably.

I can see the points your trying to make nep (and agree with more than a few), but, and im not trying to be insulting, you strike me as someone who is a mega power gamer who just gets bored once the challenge has gone for you. Either things are gonna be too easy or too hard.

As much as it pains me to say it, for once i agree with park on this one when he says "I also play here because of the ever changing environment. This mod continues to grow with positives and negatives. Let's face it which mod doesn't have both? I would love to see Nep's 5th point get carried out. Who wouldn't love faster leveling with how much time we can invest into the game these days?  Anyway thats why I play."

Community is probably the only thing that has been continous on the server, having fun, helping people out, stomping on a Mordor or 2 etc. If Carnage is the same one thats been here as long (longer although with a huge gap!) than i have then hes seen it all before. Arguments on which direction the server is taking splits everyone, ends up bitter and half the stable player base leaves (good points on the city matey) i dont agree though that it should be just simply a pvp server (theres just not the numbers anymore) though and i dont think gvm has ever just been that. As for his excalibur, thats heading back to uber items for uber farmers, making thier toons too uber for the game or other players (wipe again).

Long and lengthy i know but i enjoy these discussion so long as they dont get personal and bitter and stay lighthearted and to the point.

Guess my suggestions would be:

More teleports to make getting from a-b quicker
Tweak less used classes and too uber classes to find a balance
Make xp a bit better due to the toughness of new ai
New areas (yes unpopular i know) with new challenges and maybe if the numbers are on some dm events.
Lastly as stated by you a point to having a lvl 40 toon except for farming although i dont know that answer to this as baradur was a lvl 40 party area and just didnt work either due to lack of numbers for a party or just too damn hard lol.

Eek too long too long, anyway good points one and all lets keep it cival and nice 

[CARNAGE]

Well Akuma-Demon its me old carnage back from pixie-chronos time when they didnt even wanna have a forum, stop this kind of posts for example lol.
And yes i have hade a one and a half year break.
What i suggest in item way is how it was before the damn uber stuff that came with issendor and then just went over the edge. no more divine 40/- for example but yet good fun playable stuff. i see no reason in going the opposite either and nerfe to much.
Then as i said about looking true the classes each and one for improvements, not nerfe.
today with the ingame items and changes i can make a toon that without problem solos baragor, i have him as an example as i know he is one of the hardest that many knows. If i do this build and i would think some allready have started. It will end by most players doing the build as we all want power yes?
Also i think you are wrong saying we dont play our lvl 40 toons, for me any way i like the most to play my lvl 40 toons, i hate spending the time to reach there to be honest.

I also wanna say something else, i was given this mod from chronos to do what ever i want with, meaning i could start one up and make all changes i like.
BUT I WONT
I do build on the one i have now and then because i really like doing it aspecially when i have free hands to make as i want. i respect Turril and the way he is going with the mod i just want to give suggestions and ideas.
If this mod for some strange reason ever would go down, then i might maybe start one up.
For me personally the mod was alot more fun pre issendor, well i even liked issendor but not all its items. New players these days maybe love the mod and think its very fun and i can understand that, but if they where here way back i think they would feel the same as me. For me it feels like we cant get back to what was but im damn sure its possible to build new and better.
I have seen so many dispuitments about most both on this mod and some other lotr mod ive been builder dm on.
Some old ideas on this mod i think would be fun to change out though like getting perma haste items and remove the alignement settings so you can start build more different characters.
In the end its up to Turril what he wants to do with it and he will have the final say, only thing we all can do i make suggestions and some might come true and some dont.
Its a big jobb they are doing and its not payed either so i guess we should be quiet and play lol.

I think its great that nep started this and i really hope to see alot more players making comments.

[Nep]

Thank you for the great remarks and suggestions. All 3 replies give a good insight on the situation.

On a broad scale, I completely agree that the typical long-ass post about what’s wrong and how to change it has been done over and over again and it more than often leads nowhere.
A thread gets a dozen replies about how to reshuffle a server and when the dust settles, everyone goes back to their char to grind away and farm farm farm… (or is it the other way around?)
Will this one be any different than the other ones? Probably not.

What I see as a main change since the wipe is the player focus. Pre-wipe, the main focus was uberness and power gaming. The really interesting bosses required very skilled players and rewarded with godly items. Since the wipe, I don't know what the main focus of the server is. It cannot possibly be the levelling, I don’t see GvM advertising itself as “Come play with us! Grind for hours!”. Could it be the “brotherhood” of party play, promoting teamplay and working together? If so, it hasn’t been all that successful… not because people don’t play together, but because after being active for nearly two months, the average party player lvl is about 30 (30 lvls in 2months? Wow…) If it takes a party 2 months to get to lvl 30, it’ll take another 2 months to get to 40…
So I am tempted to say that the focus is the same as before… uberness and power gaming. The big bad bosses are still here, they still require skilled player. The only difference is… no more juicy rewards.

Akuma you’re 100% right in saying that I’m getting bored once the challenge goes. My threshold for “painful” gaming is pretty high but there’s a limit. That limit doesn’t come from things being too easy or too hard, it comes from things being unfair…
- A boss with 80ab and immunity to all spells 8 and below is unfair… it doesn’t balance things, it doesn’t force teamplay, it’s simply unfair… And the saddest part is that it doesn’t stop people from trying (and succeeding for that matter)…
- Some classes in GvM can level to 40 in days. If I remember well, it took me 10 days to get to 40. Other classes need 10 days to gain ONE level… That’s not fair… Classes don’t get equal chances at the most basic of things: levelling.

I’ve heard a million times already that everything can’t be evened out and that some classes will always have the edge over others… yes, that is true, but this will lead to a server filled with farming toons that gather gear for their parked, unused, unlevelled char. Don’t believe me? Check how many Sorc/Paly/Rogue char are on next time you log in… I play one, not because I love Sorc... I play one because they work. They win, they get the bosses, they get the gear, they get the girl. Take your unhasted meleer to a big boss area and let me know how that goes...

So here I go again writing a bucket about what's wrong with this place and how to fix it blah blah...

I think what we need to do is get the right people in the debate. Namely Turril. That's it. As long as Turril doesn't come in THIS thread and says: "Ok guys, I''m listening, watsup?..." then we're just shuffling air amongst us...

This conversation seems like a gathering of work colleagues whining about their job while the boss isn't here... And this is my main grief. GvM is turning into a job. Log in, grind grind grind, get a small reward for your work and see ya tomorrow for the same routine!

The next paragraph is directed to TURRIL. Everyone is free to comment or bash at will, but my purpose here is make my case for the XP solution to Turril:

Turril, more xp (a LOT more) would mean:
- Faster levelling. People getting to level 40 faster. More variety of builds played, some crappy builds are taken to 40, then discarded because they are useless, not a big problem. Most people's vault carry 10-20 lvl 40 chars. People will play more. Not grind, PLAY.
- More ACTION. PvP and PvM. If everyone is the same lvl (40) then it's more likely they will party up to attack that impossible place they can only dream of today. Also, a lvl 40 PvP fight to me is more interesting than a lvl 21 casting WoB on a dude that stands no chance.
- More Players. This one is self-explanatory. Easy to level, easy to stay.

- Cheapened server If word gets around that you can level to 40 in 5 minutes, it will attract the scum of NWN and chances are the server will be ridden with bug abusers, fun killers and other obnoxious Dbag... that's a fact and a real risk, can't deny it but I have faith in our player base that they can keep that species away...
-More Farming This one I'm not entirely sure but it's a possibility. Now that you don't have to grind for hours, you get to do whatever you want with your time... get some gear, get some bosses, in short: ACTION... I see it as a good thing but it may be seen as an escalating race to see who can get the most stuff (it's already/always happening among lvl40s).... greed greed greed.


So that's my plea to you Turril. Consider it, or don't. It's in your hands.


I'll leave you guys with this little analogy I came up with while wasting time at work:

Nep's simplified analogy:
Imagine a great amusement park. Everyone's having fun. Plenty of rides and plenty of people. There are rides for people who like standard family fun and rides for people who want more extreme fun... On average, all the rides have a very long waiting line but because they're so fun, people don't mind waiting...
Now some people complain that the extreme rides spoil the fun of the normal rides. Some complain that because some freakos keep hogging the extreme rides, they can't get a fair chance to get on the rides themselves...
So what happens? The amusement park owners reduces the speed of all extreme rides, making them all about the same speed and re-open the park...
Guess what happens next? People start lining up... the waiting lines are damn long but I remember this ride from before, it's freaking sweeeet! It's all gonna be worth it once I get my turn!....

I've been on most rides at the new GvM park and it's nothing like the old park. If you enjoy the standard rides and get a great kick out of them, you'll be more than happy. If you're saving up for the extreme rides... I can tell you now, it's not worth the wait or hassle...

[Turril]

ok my thoughts......

item drop rates have not been changed since i have been on staff...so say 5+ years...part of the fun is finally getting that elusive drop....to make items easier to get...and  lets be honest ur talking way easier , (cause increasing from 3% to 5 %or 5% to 7% whatever it is atm, isnt what your talking about), i might as well just make a mega store in eru and sell everything....no drops just gold... (hmm sounds like an arena server)

easier leveling.....well party exp was increased a huge amount, but it seeems greed for drops outdoes greed for exp as most of you still wont/dont party up. i am not oppsoed to increasing exp....hell i can just make ya lvl 39 on mod enter if u all want....( lol yah i know a bit extreme).  FYI  experience has been increased (although more for party) over what this mod was 5 years ago.  i dont mind incrasing exp slightly, but my main reason for not have "fast" leveling are as follows
1. toons that take no time to make also have no real "emotional" investment there is nothing like that feeling of finally getting that final level   
2. people get bored fast when things are too easy fast leveling and fast drops do just that...take away any feeling of accomplishment and no challenge causes people to get bored. granted if things are too hard people get frustrated and bored too...and i realize that which was why we increased the solo exp abotu 5% and party about 20%.

to the point about impossble bosses...ie neps comments about 80ab and immune to all spells ect.....atm bosses are a work in progress...trying to get the right balance so thate every1 has a chance to kill any boss seems pretty much impossible.....bosses that are immune to al or most spells are basically designed for melee to have a better chance to kill.....so that those people that only play lets say  pally sorc rogues will have a hell of a problem killing them, and might need to try something else, or not bother with that specific boss. btw  it is my intention to have it so bosses for the most part arent soloable.

I know atm the higher lvl toons are limited to where they can really adventure, and for that i am sorry.....more areas will be added for the higher lvls in the future....

well took me an hour to write this due to daughter interruptions and cant remember if i forgot anything lol   




 

[Endlessorrow]

The first 3 years I gamed on nwn I played on a mod that a avarage player could get to lvl 40 in about 24 hrs of game play  say 4-8 days. I built many crappy builds and shelved them started building cleric hybrids and then joining in the pvp wars that raged strictly among lvl 40 characters. I came to gvm because that server was dying and what i liked about gvm I think most was the random low % drop system
 
 I still like it and though I have no lvl 40 characters I have ammassed alot of nice gear and killed some things that I have ben told I am the only one to kill since the wipe, and have a few items no one else has and a few only a few other players have. so I guess I like the combination of arms race-one upsmanship and the jackpot feeling of geting that nice drop.

   I think I like pvp just as much as farming I find my self on a 20 something build hunting players atleast as much as I do killing the bosses or item collecting in good areas. Gvm has since I've played here ben heavy on pvp in those  20 something lvls.  It is just as enjoyable to me as pvp between 40s  which also boiled down to rock papper scisors with the best pvp comming when simalar builds face off [except a.c. whores lol]

 The new A.I. makes the grind and farm more chalenging and enjoyable for me. at the same time it restricts what build I want to take in what area mostly i farm and explore with my sorc/ monk/ bg and he would be lvl 40 if I hadnt respawned so often and crafted 100 or so wands. I cant take most of my builds into a heavy boss area as nep said,  there are a lot of areas of limits for my non caster toons and i have spent many hours painfuly learninng this.

  To lessen the pain involved in that learning process I still advocate for the idea of removing item loss on respawn and capping xp loss. It would mean faster leveling and faster learning as players try new things.

   I am of mixed mind when it comes to drastictly raising the xp rate.  I never considered gvm to be a medium paced leveling mod I thought it was slow. but i arpreciated the work that was put in to all the varried areas for different level toons. It is a nod to traditional dnd xp and leveling and party social play. It is enjoyable to play in a party and i do it from time to time but its not always possible or plausible
  
With very fast xp you would go to goby caves for say 15-30 minutes  till lvl 7 or 8. Some intermidate areas for say 2-4 hrs and be at lvl 20 re gear and go xp farming in stingers or shelobs or the like and hit lvl 30 in say 6-10 hrs then the last 10 lvls would take about 12 hrs if you knew your stuff atleast thats how it used to go for me. I wouldnt mind that it sounds great especialy if I am running in circles in emyn arnen trying to hit lvl 14 or something.

  But would it feel like gvm?   Dose the gvm experience partly depend on getting those hard earned lvls passed the mid 20s?  Idk but I am a player who hates mind numbing grinding   so I am all for a exp jump. I do fear new players being seriously under geared for their lvl and low on gp wearing plus 3 armor at lvl 30 would be tough. another  great reason to loose the item drop on respawn penalty which I guess is my personal windmill to joust at on the forums


   ps turrils post wasnt up as i wrote this maybey move it above his lol

[notyou1]

I started playing Neverending Nights in a world called Isle of Ithacus that a friend had made.

Why am I here??? Well, I followed a girl to GVM and have been playing on and off for over 2 years. She is gone but I am still wandering this world. I don't get on very much and when I do it's usually for short periods of time. That makes it hard to team as I feel guilty if I leave ...I feel like I am abandoning my teammates. So conseqently, I always soloed a lot. This is a real problem with the new AI. Don't get me wrong I like the AI and the challenge but I think when compounded with the items the npc's have its a real issue. Perhaps some review of NPC gear is in order, unless its aleady been done. I would recommend the common areas first, then the rarer areas and then the seldom traveled areas.

I think #5 in Nep's list is also a good suggestion.....more exp would help alleviate some of the grind. Perhaps a 10% incease....thats what we did in the new pen and paper version of D&D and it helped a great deal. Now its only 1 month to level playing one night a week instead of 5 weeks to level.

 

[Akuma-Demon]

Good points endless and notyou.. said what i was trying to say but in half the words lol

Followed a girl  I just assume everyone is a guy.. shows you how much i know.. how many ladies play? I might be insulting olle but i gathered they were a she and apart from arwen i cant remember any others. I do play alot of female toons but then its my fantasy and i'll indulge in it 

[Turril]

Well carnage u aksed me to reply specifically to your posting so i will point by point

1. no clue how cities used to work "before" as you put it.  you will have to be a bit more specific
2. i do like the idea of free port back to city to defend
3. the wk and aragorn already have an automatic drop  (quest) worth 10k exp  nobody has killed them yet to collect 
4.  i am not reverting all spells back to the way they wer originally made. NWN is originally not a multiplayer game and casters already have a huge advantage..reverting all spells back to their original would just increase that advantage, and i have no idea what you mean by "shift changes"
5. tweeking classes to "balance " them is bloody difficult to say the least. everybody has a different idea of what is more balanced. ie u say the BG needs the equiviliant to the divine favour added to  its bulls str ability, but the spell has been altered so it isnt nearly as good unless alot more pally lvls are taken. Nextly the BG has really nice summons at higher lvl...pallys dont..plus sneak attacks.  Its all pretty much eyeball tested and every1's eyes view it different. I would rather not do anymore "class balancing " unless it is deemed totally needed
6. NPC's no longer have ND (no drop) gear. That has been stated in other posts as pne of my goals post wipe. IF the npcs have it..it can drop and players can use it 
7. Growing rules....i agree, unfortuntaley everybody seems to become part time lawyers looking for loop holes and ways to exploit the rules so they have been made more specific because of these "types" of players. but ur right....dont kill effys, dont chain kill, and rezz who u kill is all that should be needed
8. as for item stats...what u have written is almsot exactly what the new itemsets are based one.....not going to go thru each item power and what the stats are but they are very similar

guess that covers about everything you said

[-firecracker-]

This is a general post from me about stuff 

.....well party exp was increased a huge amount, but it seeems greed for drops outdoes greed for exp as most of you still wont/dont party up.

I have to agree with this. I was trying to level a dwarf barbarian since the wipe. Barbarians only hit good when at very high level (e.g. you hit lvl 34+ and complete your 10th level multiclass +1). As pinky put it - barbarians don't make good solo toons but are a good asset to a party - they make lousy PVP'ers and PVM'ers until 34+ because of their uber AC penalty and rubbish saves, and also get an XP penalty which makes leveling very slow going. The amount of times I logged in, asked if anyone was up for some party play, got no response and ended up dieing to KD spam by low level NPCs due to the new AI is a reason I have not logged in for weeks now. I have literrally found it impossible to level my barb any higher due to the fact that I have to go to an uber low level area to get XP without dieing, unless there are similar level players on (which wasn't that often).

I don't play the usual builds, I play builds that are a challange and good for 'party play' like my PM/DD, barbarians and construct shifter - I don't build dragons or mages or shielded clerics because I have always had the impression that it is too easy which leads me onto PVP - It seems most of the PVPs I have engaged in since the wipe have been vs mages with bigby and IGMS spam (or mummy dust with KD spam too). No offense to the people who builds these but when I am playing my uber low AB PM/DD and get constantly spammed with bigby, I kind of think what it the point...IMHO IGMS / ILMS should never have been introduced without a save (reflex?). It doesn't matter how much you nerf the damage amount of the spells (without making it useless) to try and equal things out, mages usually have enough spell slots to be able to kill toons even with high constitution after they have been bigbied a couple of times.

On the subject or drops itself...doesn't bother me, I was a late commer to the 'old' setup and managed to get drops many others didn't so I can always catch up again in that respect.

Finally, on item drop on death/respawn - I have to disagreee. After a few weeks of playing GvM anyone will have more GP than they know what to do with so GP loss becomes irrelavent. Everyone with money will just be respawning constantly which will remove some of the challange element to the mod.

[notyou1]

Turril and Olle,

I want to say a few things, in my opinion, but I hope I speak for all the players when I say this.

THANK YOU

You are doing a great job and I don't think any of the above is meant as criticism. It is a discussion, and I'll add a very civil discussion/debate, that is stated with good intentions by the players that love this world. If they didn't care they wouldn't say anything.

Your hours of devotion are greatly appreciated, not to mention the expenses such as internet, new hardware I believe, and the ENDLESS HOURS.

I think the AI is the major change that has occurred, and I believe additional experience and NPC item review would help even it out the most. The previous statement is my opinion only.

And thanks again 

[CARNAGE]

About the citys how they worked before.
Long, Long back for tirith for example there was only one gate and that was the big first gate and then you where in the city. This might be to go to long back

Long back The main change to the city i think is that greater sanc doesent work in there as i belive they added a script preventing players from sneak in to the citys. I would like to se that script removed in both citys to make it possible to sneak in under greater sanctuary again, it will bring back the hunt when some player then actually spot the one sneaking in..

I need to hurry reach lvl 40 then and start try kill aragorn, probably it wount be possible solo any more but i stil hope it is.............

About the shift changes i mean leave em as you have allready changed em, maybe tweak em out a little, pesonally i hate the dragon shifter and still think its the most overpowered thing in the game and its also the one with a sertain build you would solo baragor for example. no more on that though.

BG change, well a pally at lvl 15 gets +5 from divine favour plus more spells you all know, with the change you have made a bg needs to reach lvl 25 to have the same. extra attacks are very good to so i guess they are a bonus but i would rather have seen no extra attacks or maybe 1 and insted get higher ab/damage bonus, but its just me maybe haha

Barbarians extra attacks i think is to radical though to be honest, they have after all similar attacks as a dual wield kama monk. 1 extra attacks for terry, 1 for thunder then the mighty rage at +5 ab and +10 slashing and no ac penalty, but its again maybe only me lol

Spells i think divine power should have been left alone, damage shields on mages either left alone and only use of one at a time like now or only use of 2 and nerfed like now.

Then remove alignement restriction, that will open up for quite some interessting builds and get both sides the same possibilitys



This is for you Turril:)

When it was only one gate i hade a wm build exactly like yours with quite good gear. plenty sequencer robes and some sequencer staffs. 2 cloaks from baragor with greater sanctuary on.
They let me sneak in to minas tirith and there i lured the peace keeper to chase me to the back end of city where we hade our long foughts:) Where i finally  got divine inspiration. Funny sword that, got me 6 months to get the first but then after maybe only one month i hade 2 more lol

[Terrorble]

Why do I play?

Lately I have 2 chars with xp penalty because I went elf so that maybe, just maybe I wouldn't get obliterated by the HiPS spamming NPCs and die in 2 seconds.  They still die often and I seem to be stuck wandering around killing the same bandits, beetles, wildmen, rohirrim that I spent the first 25 levels doing.  I am having a VERY hard time getting any of my chars to transition to the higher level areas that I want to play (Lorien, Fallen, Helm's Deep, Spirit's Lair, Minas Tirith, Moria Upper Halls, Path's of the Dead, Edoras,...)  That is definitely not the reason I play but what I have spent too much time doing.

I have landed in quite a few parties lately.  Good fun in the Battlefield of the Fallen, crazy mess in Helm's Deep, some runs into Moria, Drow, Pelargir, etc.  I play for those.  The xp sometimes isn't great but our increase in party xp is infinitely better than how it was way back when.

I play to try new builds.  I'm very opposite to Nep's explanation of why he made a Sorc/Pally/rogue.  He plays it because it works and gets him what he wants.  In my eyes, I know it works and can get me what I want and for some reason in my head is therefore not worth doing.  (So, the result is you see me dead with my lesser chars often and complaining in party chat - tx for putting up with me)

I play to beat up bosses and PvP.  I haven't enjoyed the mage PvP much.  I have enjoyed more of the melee fights quite a bit.  Had a great tangle with Lightbringer the other day and a good one with an SD monk (even tho I was angry thta despite all my efforts into spot skill he still managed to kill me with HiPS in the end).  Had a great battle with Turril's archer, glad I had a buddy along he didn't know about.


If you ever talk to me I always have a 100 item list of what can be changed

Without lengthy explanations I do think XP could still come faster than it does, mostly due to the new AI power.  My suggestion for doing that is different than a blanket increase and I will run it by Turril, but I think it is something that many of you would honestly enjoy.

On the point of items, we have a lot of junk in the shops and on NPCs that have no purpose.  I said it elsewhere, I hope items continue to change.  If there's no reason to use it, then it isn't good enough.  If it is so good that there's no reason to use anything else, then it's too good.  I see a place for class/alignment requirements on some items but do not understand some of them sometimes.

The new AI IMO offers a brilliant opportunity to revamp the "Old GvM Boss Style".  Old GvM Boss Style is immune to tons of spells, sneaks, uber AC, insane DR, damage, and AB.  Now that the NPCs use more abilities and are generally much better at being jerks, you don't need a single uber boss.  You need a group of npcs with varied abilities without any one of them being too much.  In my mind this does two things: 
1.  You have more unique npcs in the boss spawn which inevitably leads to lots of item options which we all luv (think King of Pelargir spawn - Advisor, Jester, King, Bodyguards are all unique with different abilities.  I'd make sure every unique NPC there has 2-3 unique items and make the king much less insane.  He crits for 280-320 with huge AB last I checked!!!) 
2.  You don't have to have any one of the NPCs in the boss spawn be straight up immune to everything.  Since it's a party you're fighting there is likely to be at least one NPC in the group that will give every build a lot of trouble, so what if the king is easy for one type to kill.  The taunting bard and chain lightning spamming sorcs won't be.

[ShinsFortress]

I don't play on GvM at all anymore, but I do still know one or two people that do.  So I am curious as to other people's motivations after having previously been a regular.

[Maeglin22]

OK, here it goes for me.

Let me preface everything by saying thanks to Turril and Olle for all they do. It is a very, very difficult task to do what they do and we all appreciate it. I would also like to ask that no one take anything I say here as complaining. I’m not. In my opinion the server is heading in the right direction and I hope that maybe something I say here helps it to move forward.

So, why do I play here? And maybe more to the point why have I not been playing quite as much lately? I am only speaking for myself but maybe some of these observations relate to others as well. I play here for 4 main reasons which I’ll talk about each in their turn. In no specific order I play for the PvP, character building / leveling, farming, and the people. Let’s face it, this game is many, many years old and can get boring at times. To help counteract any boredom it was nice to have 3 ways to play the game (PvP, leveling, farming). Lately though for me each of those areas has taken a hit. No fault of anyone, just adjustments made after the wipe that are being addressed I’m sure.  I apologize in advance for the length of this post. It is my one-and-only post so far so maybe I’m making up for lost time.

PvP

 This topic doesn’t seem to be gone over as much as the others, at least in this post so I’ll spend a bit of time on it. I love the PvP action here. There are many good players here that I love to go up against. What better test of playing skills than to go up against a real person. The changes that were made to the server increased the PvP action for the most part but lately I’ve observed some issues that for me, and let me stress for me, have decreased the fun of PvP. The main issue for me is the strength of mages in PvP. I realize that these classes are already strong based on just the way the game is set up, but post-wipe they seem stronger than ever. For those that might think that I am just complaining I am not. I believe I was the first out of the gate with  the PvP mage after the wipe. With the changes that were made to the spells (shield-stacking, IGMM limits, Bigby limits…) there was a lot of talk about how it was going to be impossible to play a mage in PvP. Sounded like a challenge to me so I built a mage farmer who could hold his own in PvP (Caranthir). With what I learned from that build I tweeked it a bit and built Eol the Dark strictly for PvP. I quickly learned that that toon was unbeatable by anyone but maybe another mage at that level. I’m not saying that this unbeatable state had anything to do with me but more with the lack of protection against the “insta-kill” spells. It got boring quickly for me so ½ way through January with about 35+ kills and maybe 1 loss I more-or-less quit playing him. I didn’t see the fun in beating someone with a flesh to stone spell, Wail of Banshee, IGMM or any of the other spells that are near-instant kill. I didn’t consider myself as being  “one of the best” just because I caught someone off-guard with their death immunity off or because I stoned them. Once again I’m not trying to speak for anyone else, just myself and my experiences playing a PvP mage. So for a bit more of a challenge I decided to build a monk for PvP and started my Amarth toon. Fun toon to play and he could hold his own in PvP, of course except for against mages until he gets some more monk levels.  It is hard to get into PvP 100% when there are at any given time 1 - 3 mage-type toons out there that can take you out with 1 spell, well maybe two with an opening mords. The frustrating part is atm there is not anything most builds can do against a handful of spells from a mage. I agree that the mages are stronger  just because that’s the way the game is built but some of the changes that are in effect highlight those advantages. Sure, IGMM has been nerfed but without immunity items the spell is stronger than ever. Bigby’s duration has been reduced, but with limited immunities out there it is also stronger than ever.  A mage can take out most any toon in the time it takes to get back up from being bull rushed.  When there were items available relatively easily with immunities it evened things out. As an example who ever really ran around with a Bull Fighters Cape on all the time, or most of the time for that matter? Not many I think, but if you saw a mage come on who was known to spam that spell it was nice to have the option. And knowing this most people didn’t spam the spell much. Same thing with IGMM and FtS. Take FoD or wail as an example. You can buy cheap immunity vs. those spells. Whenever I see one of the mages who is known for casting those two spells come on I put my belt on. Would be nice to have that option for other spells. I’m not advocating adding immunities to “useful” items out there but having an item with only immunity to a certain spell would be nice. Yes, I hear there is forceful immunity out there but if the one place I know it drops is the only place to get it not many will have immunity soon.  I guess in summary PvP isn’t the same because it has become mainly the realm of the mage. Yes there are those out there who do well who are not mages but mages own PvP atm. Just my opinion.

Character Building / Leveling

I won’t go into this one as much as others have said pretty much what I am thinking. It is currently difficult once you get a toon into that upper 20’s, lower 30’s range. I know areas are being added and areas are being adjusted as we go along so I will hang in there on this one.  I also know that there is a big push for team-play, but we can not forget about those who prefer solo play sometimes out of time or afk issues.

Farming

Once again others are saying what I feel as well. It’s hard to get excited about farming for gear that isn’t much better if at all than gear that you can purchase in town.  I have confidence that this will be improved as we go along. Kind of a touchy area. Up the power of gear and PvP is thrown off to some degree.

The Peeps
Great as always, probably the glue to it all.

So that is my addition to the conversation. I play here because it is fun. I haven’t been playing here as much lately because of some of the issues that we have all been talking about and that I highlighted above. I hope that something I said helps in some small way and I look forward to continuing to play on a great server.

[Endlessorrow]

just a note on the immune items
 
 some bigbies imune items....   got em

 the old spell sheild with igm and ilm imune and fire and acid resit are cnow avail as a boss drop tower sheild.

 masons belt...  got as a boss drop.

 Now if i got these   they will soner or later become wide spread and people will eventualy stop with lame mage builds or atleast cut back on em

[Abimael]

Oh well, I'm gonna put my two or three words on this matter, too.

Basically the reasons of why I play are the same as Maeglin stated above. I like the PvP, especially the wars on Osgiliath, the party PvM, be it for leveling or farming, and, of course, the community. Whether you admit it or not, it is a form of socializing and the server would definetely not have its appeal if those simple things like "mips" and "gips" didn't exist. Heck, if I wanted a single player experience I'd be playing BGs or PSTs.

About the PvP notes on mages many noted here, I agree that they are powerful but I disagree on the solution of having mass Immunities. It resolves the advantage of casters by simply making them totally useless unless for hasting. I'll name the example of a bard/wm/rdd I had pre-wipe: she had a full quickslot just for fighting mages, which included Immunities to Death Magic, Implosion, Forceful, Chain Lightning, Dominations, resistance to Ice Storms and about 5 Positives Thinkings to fight against Horrids. I knew she would be weak against them, so I only made this to make the caster get tired of trying to kill me - and it worked.

Casters are strong because their DCs get higher a lot faster than the saving throws of classes. At 20, a speciliazed mage can get over 30 in the DC of their chosen school, while a fighter... well, will is his weak saving throw and he probably has that 8 in his dump stat WIS, so he get the staggering 5 of a will save, which equals to death. That's why a paladin is a very strong class: it has the best buffing clerical spells, full bab progression and a very nice bonus to saving throws that helps him keep alive agaisnt those freaks.

I like the way the server is going in making saving throws more important and taking off immunities. I totally agree on Noruas about item limitations, that keeps things from going out of hand like it went before. Honestly, you think it was cool to see a bard/pm/rdd that had 90 ac that could soak all physical damage and cast Epic Warding? Or a pm/sorc that could enter MT all by herself?

My suggestions in these matters are: items should give specific bonuses just to Fortitude, Reflex or Will, and not specific ones like Death or Acid. Makes things simpler and more useful. Also, I think only Red-lettered items should be allowed to "pass" over item limitations and have higher bonuses without, of course, making them uberly powerful. I say that because yesterday I got the new Celebrant Officer Armor and could't help but laugh at it. Considering that Acid Sheath can do a max of 35 acid damage now, would an armor that soaks about 3 of that damage be worth wearing? Also, it comes now with a funny "Improved Saving throw: acid +3". Name 1 spell with acid description that is not Mestil's Acid Sheath and is useful (and remember that Mestil's doesn't allow saves)  .

Finally, I agree on the xp problems. A group with a couple mages and tanks in Moria can make the mid 20s leveling easy, but after 30 leveling gets very hard and boring unless you choose to do quests. I do think though that it is only a matter of the Devs finishing the rebuilding of old areas and the construction of new ones .

(I was going to say more but the text kept getting longer so I'll stop by now )

[Maeglin22]

OK, guess I wasn't 100% clear in my rambling post. I don't want mass immunities and am very much against it, I would just like to see some available out there to help check the instant-death castings of mages and help open up PvP for more classes. My favorite toon class to play is still the wizard and I love playing PvP wizards but they are quite honestly for me not fun anymore if I know that 99% of the time I can cast 1 spell and win. Yes I could just not throw those spells, my Eol toon has thrown just 2 bigbies since the wipe but when a mage comes up against another mage he has to follow suit or lose quickly. I like PvP for the challenge and for the long battle, not for racking up numbers with easy-kill spells. Keep in mind I'm not trying to speak for anyone else but myself. The topic is "Why do YOU play" after all. Mages can and do win without throwing a single Bigby or IGMM for instance but with the current system in place they are guaranteed a win throwing those spells. I know there are now items available for forceful so I am hoping this one issue has been addressed but I'd bet that 95% of the toons out there right now in the 20's are still vulnerable to Bigby (for instance) and will continue to be that way in the months to come. And the immunity thing was just an example. Improved chances for surviving the initial first or second spell is all I am looking for (lol, aren't we all). If that can be done with items that improve saves then maybe that is a better solution. I’m not trying to "fix" anything, just trying to keep on topic and give my humble opinion of why I play, and why I don't.

[charliebuckett]

I haven't played much...but there are no IGMS immunity or wail or weird or instance death spell immunities?

[Maeglin22]

As far as I know, and I haven't played a ton in about a month so my information might be dated:

Instant Death Magic: yes, purchased but you have to wear the belt and forego other good belts that you might want to wear to be protected.
IGMM: no
Bigby: Forceful yes, limited - others not sure but think not.
FtS: I hear now yes but boss drop only so limited.

[CARNAGE]

There are more items, fallen bracers for example that casts shadow shield 2 times a day.
I dont have any problems with casters being better on here because the only ingame mechanic a melee would have is removed here, devastating crit pretty much works exactly how it works with death spells. so if we lok at it that way we either add dev crit or rescript death spells:)

[Aleena]

I originally followed Red Raisin here a year and a half ago. I think the module is about the best balanced of any I've played. I've never liked playing spellcasters much so my characters are perpetually doomed to losing at PvP. However, I do like the comraderie of adventuring with other players so assaulting Isengard or Edoras with 2 or 3 others or scraping together a rescue party makes for a fun evening to me.

I rather like the changes since the wipe. The one thing that bothered me most pre-wipe was being killed by long-time players equipped up the the wazoo with items that were no longer available to the rest of us (spell sequencers, etc). That was horribly unfair and was the main reason most of my friends refused to play here pre-wipe.

I've built or helped build a few PWs (Valley of Shrouds, Origins 1, Origins 2) and modules (Seats 6 Serves 7) and would love to help contribute if any new areas are desired. The main reason that I continue to play is that the module is under continual development/improvement. The anticipation of fighting new creatures, finding new items, and exploring new areas is what keeps me.

[notyou1]

Aleena, I'm like you I rarely play spell casters and prefer not to. But, you have to play casters if you  want to get some of the good gear and to go to some of the harder places, especially if you solo.

I never play sorcs or wizards, and really only play cleric spellcasters, but most of my toons are made for weapon melee.

It has become almost impossible to play a melee toon solo in this world.