Class: Rogues, Assassins, Shadowdancers

[Abimael]

With the recent changes that have been made in the server, namely the TS that gives 50 to listen and spot and the lack of stealth gear, I'm starting to think that soon builds based purely on those classes will start to become rarer, so this topic is about what we could do to give 'em more chances of survival.

Don't take this wrong, I think the TS change is in the right direction, but a pure 50 bonus is too much. With my cleric/monk I had 70 listen at 20, while probably sneakers can't have his ms higher than 50. Scaling the TS bonus relative to the caster seem a little more fair, say, 1 listen and spot/clvl.

Other idea I had was "Stealth Master" bonus. Let's say the sneak toon took Stealth feat and epic skill focus in hide/ms, and also he has either +20 in rogue, assassin or +10 in sd. He could be granted a bonus to his steath skills if he meets these 2 conditions and thus beeing granted a bonus equal to half his main sneak class to his stealth skills.

So? What you people think?

[pinkpuff]

I'm pretty sure the max skill bonus from spells/items is 50 so keep that in mind.

Feats like the skill foci's, stealthy, and racial bonuses don't count toward the  cap.


But yes, all spells with a damage component or bonus should scale with level. Thats why there were always tons of wiz/pm or sorc/pm before, just no benefit of going past lvl 29 as a caster.


Shadowdancers shouldnt get HIPS until lvl 10, easy change(5 at least). However they SHOULD get +1-2 hide/ms per sd level.

[MasterThief]

Unfortunately that would scrap alot of peoples builds if they were to change it even to just 5, the timer is a pain but then so is taking 10 sd lvls for hips which isnt that great considering the amount of people with ts anyway (the point of the thread).

I find it's probably only useful for pvm and if it was changed again i think it would be the death of SD's as a class, why bother investing in 10 lvls in sd if most people can spot you, epic dodge is the only reason i can think of and fortunately that can be gotten with 5 sd and 9 monk or 13 rogue.

[Endlessorrow]

I have found hips to be still efective pvp with 1 or 10 sd lvls lots of hipsing murderers out there are surviveable enough to handle a few rounds of ts through high ac or running ect.

   These players seem to know when their opponent activates ts. and have a back up plan to just hanging out in stealth and taking potshots.


  That said most hipsers have little chance against  a sorc with ts and a bigby spell. This is more the fault of a bigby spell imo.

 

[pinkpuff]

http://www.gondorvsmordor.com/gvm2/forum/index.php?topic=689.0

[Terrorble]

In my dreams I search for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow that not even a leprechaun attends to because its existence is probably impossible.  It isn't actually gold but a rewrite of the NWN game engine pertaining to HiPS, spot/listen checks, and attacking moving targets.

Forever I have held this hopeless vision of how HiPS could be better.  Corner sneaking would work on NPCs, HiPS could only be used once per round, and melee attackers could simply charge and attack another player who is evading all their attacks by just walking away.

A STR-based melee generally has several downsides vs a HiPSter. 

• Poor ranged capabilities, mediocre listen/spot by comparison since WIS is not a convenient stat to buff vs DEX on a HiPSter
• low DEX and therefore poor initiative rolls
• sometimes epic dodge
• only being able to make a single listen/spot check per round while HiPSters can hide as many times as their clicking fingers will allow 

The end result, PvP fights where you can literally do nothing.  You try whirlwind attack, they have epic dodge, you spot them, they re-hide, you try KD, they win initiative so while walking away their hide action occurs before your first attack,... you get the idea.

Our current timer system is a questionable improvement from the stock implementation because players can still break combat by spamming hide which leaves you unable to do anything.  Not to mention NPCs still abuse HiPS.  This isn't finger pointing, it's me wishing the engine was slightly different so that I wouldn't walk around with my non-keen sense char thinking that SD PvP is a complete waste of time for this char since my only hope of winning vs one is their mouse breaks.

I'm not sure what that had to do with TS, arrest me    Oh wait officer I can explain!  Since non-keen sense builds only get a single spot/listen check per round and TS builds rarely put points into spot/listen then after the first couple rounds you should be able to re-hide from any TS caster.  The real problem is keen sense spotters who use TS for super easy spot buff like Abimael first posted.  Case solved... and I agree, TS with that massive bonus ruins the need for Ranger favored enemy detect bonuses, all other detection spells, items, etc.

[MasterThief]

Hmm i must admit i do like the idea of HIP's being in based on the amount of light (hiding in the shadows) with the darker it is the bigger the bonus to the hide and visa versa in the light in favour of the spotter  (kind of like good old thief).

Unfortunately there are alot of imbalances in the classes but what can you do? What suits someones sense of fairness and balance is usually at the expense of someone else's views lol. I have built a str based rogue, sd, figher of late using the rogue bonus feats for epic hide and MS, seems to be just as effective as the dexer but can really pack a whallop. Dancers silloette helps along with a cloak of the fallen really kicks up the skill bonus probably more than it would being a dexer and you can always pile on the dex items to get it higher. Obvious weakness is his ac but its as good as a melee toons and you do have hips and evasion to and kding out of hips is sweet as is everyone assumption that your a week dexer lol

Good point about the iniative though, might have to look as squeezing in superior and the other one to improve that but as i say with the above toon you can get your dex up to about 24 or so with spells and items so it isnt too bad.

[Terrorble]

NWN actually does some of what you like there masterthief.  I've been doing my homework and was directed to some official info from a while back in the Bioware forums.

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=549835&forum=42&sp=15#4835662

An excerpt from that thread:
Listen/Move Silently:

* Automatically cannot detect silenced creatures
* Can only detect invisible (or when you're blind) creatures within the max attack range.
* Cannot hear sanctuaried creatures
* If there is something between you and the target (including creatures) there's a modifier of +5 DC for every 40cm of thickness in outdoor areas
* In indoor areas, if the LOS is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles (dfs search) there's a modifier of +2 DC
* Area listen check modifiers
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* +1 DC for every 3 meters of distance to the target
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses

Spot/Hide In Shadows:

* Automatically cannot detect invisible creatures
* Automatically cannot detect anything while blinded
* Area spot check modifiers
* During Night, if you do not have a light on you (including weapon lights and darkvision) there is a +5 DC modifier
* During Night, if the target has a light on them, there is a -10 DC modifier
* For stealthed players only, there is a +5 DC if they are in the back arc
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses

As you can see, SD's gain a +10, I repeat a +10 to hide/ms just for being in combat.  That's huge and could explain some of my difficulties spotting people and things I felt I should have been able to in the past.  Additionally if the line of sight (LOS) or distance is increased there are additional bonuses as well.  Night also grants a +5DC as well.  So a night combat situation is +15hide automatically unless they have darkvision and or you are holding/wearing a light item.

[MasterThief]

Wow thanks for the data Terrorble 

Am i reading this right, silenced creatures are creatures with the silence spell cast on them? I always assumed that that spell was for attacking mages?

Didnt know about the "something between you" modifier either  (or the +10 in combat)

[parknutz]

I would like to see the Assassin class get some love. This prestige class is largely avoided because everyone and their mother has some sort of freedom item making their death attacks useless. They get a few useful spells and UMD but other than they only a handful of toons use this class.

[Terrorble]

I found a way recently to put custom onhit effects on weapons via the use poison feat when you use a poison vial.  With scripted effects I can bypass some of the default Bioware handling for poisons which has rendered even good poison effects basically useless in the past versus other players.  (i.e. oh no I'm poisoned with several liters of a incredibly lethal poison that is causing shakes and rigors and digesting my bones from the inside out and dissolving my brains but don't worry, I have a healing kit and a lesser restore pot!)

I'll put something here or in a specific thread when I get a bit further.

[Red Raisin]

the max total of bonus to skill is +50 with items and buffs.

the hardcoded cap to skills is 127.

[Rade]

oh no I'm poisoned with several liters of a incredibly lethal poison that is causing shakes and rigors and digesting my bones from the inside out and dissolving my brains but don't worry, I have a healing kit and a lesser restore pot!

Don't you mean "I have this vial of Acme all-purpose antidote!"

I really wish HiPs worked like the original idea for nwn2. You were supposed to be able to jump between shadows that were within 10ft of each other, the distance would increase as your levels did.... Damn, that would be SO sweet. This idea ended up just disappearing sadly, but if I ever figure out how to edit HiPs in nwn2, I will make it happen, I swear...


Here's the fundamental flaw in all this. Pretty much everyone here hates fighting an SD unless they have some way to beat it. Now that there are easy ways to spot one (like TS), nobody wants to play an SD because they can be so squishy. So now we ask that SDs and other sneakers get some beef because they can't beat anything now! And once we do that, people will say they can't spot sneakers! And then the spotters will get some love! And then the sneakers! And then the spotters! And then the... well, you get it.

I like what Dungeons Eternal X did with True seeing. It would give you a bonus of +15 spot (and listen, but screw listen) with Ultravision 1 hour/level and See invisibility for something like 1 turn/2 caster levels. If however, the caster had over 80 spot/listen you would be given "True True Seeing" and it would act just like the regular spell. I liked it because it required you to have a spotting dedicated build, epic skill foci and dedicated items.

Because of the aforementioned vicious cycle, I like the "True True Seeing" idea. It lets sneakers dominate those who refuse to take spot and listen, but they will be destroyed by dedicated spotters. So basically, you can't complain either way: Either you should take spot and listen next time, or you gave up focus in other areas to deal specifically with sneakers.
The +15 bonus also ensures that someone won't simply be able to take a little bit of hide/ms and HiPs the heck out of someone. They have to be dedicated sneakers.

[Endlessorrow]

Just a note .....  In one build I have a sneak, a elf spoter listener rg sd lvl 40 The skills hide ms /and spot listen are all very high the stealth ones benifit from high dex and items and hide bennifits from 2 camoflauge buffs   if I slip on fallen lord robe I get 110 hide 90 move silent.  I have a static 62 spot and 52 listen. With spoting items and a 15 rd clairaudence clairivoance wand cast i get 92 spot and 72 listen  if i use a true see item i get  3 rds of true see and  9 rds of 105 spot 95 listen. These numbers seem prety balanced to me.  She was built as a dedicated sneak and spotter.
 This build has never lost pvp to a in lvl range sneak. and seldom losses to a in range meler even true seeing users  then have to hit high 70s ac with epic dodge because when they activate true see i use sword and sheild and go toe to toe till it wears off.

  This seems prety balanced to me over all   If i got stealth bonuses for the 13 sd lvls or the 26 rogue lvls or the 1 ranger lvl or all 3 it would realy push the hide end thru the roof.

[Rade]

Addendum:

Something was proposed in the Spells - Epic that caught my eye when considering true seeing. It's a divination spell, as Red Raisin mentioned, spell focus in divination is highly underused.
If you made a requirement for "True True Seeing" Epic Skill focus Divination, this would also prevent your non-casters from using an item with True Seeing cast on it to get "True True Seeing".
The problem with that, is there would be a little imbalance between Paladins and Blackguards (because Paladins would get access to spell focus feats without multiclassing and BGs would have to take a caster class) although that's never really been a problem before.

I think it definitely deserves mention that summons, dragons, and rakshasas should NOT have Permanent True Seeing. Maybe they could have bonuses to spot and listen, because that makes biological sense; but they don't need the ability to permanently see sneakers or invisible targets. Dragons also don't need Immunity: Sneak Attack on their hide. That just doesn't make sense; I would almost think that some 30 ft tower would be MORE susceptible to a hidden attack at their soft spots.

[parknutz]

Addendum:

I think it definitely deserves mention that summons, dragons, and rakshasas should NOT have Permanent True Seeing. Maybe they could have bonuses to spot and listen, because that makes biological sense; but they don't need the ability to permanently see sneakers or invisible targets. Dragons also don't need Immunity: Sneak Attack on their hide. That just doesn't make sense; I would almost think that some 30 ft tower would be MORE susceptible to a hidden attack at their soft spots.

The reason behind the immunity to sneak attack is because most dragons have Blindsense/Blindsight which makes them aware of anything with a certain radius. At least thats the reasoning behind it in PnP.

[ShinsFortress]

As if Rak's aren't easy enough to take on anyway?  Dragons and summons have different and maybe valid cases to modify TS for them, but Rak's are not common for a multitude of reasons.

[silverblades]

what you have to realize about dragons is thay were never inteded to be our lackeys, us summoning them to fight for us. They were inteded to be guarding a hoard of coin and magic in a deep cave, able to spot some sneaky thief wanting something that was not his.
 What there really asking is to take the ability away from the summons because we basically have a way to have true seeing up all the time without the spell being cast, (thru the summons). That way these sneakers can follow us around and pick us off when were not ready.. instead they get spotted right away by our summons and they dont like that.

they got waaay too much power as it is.. I say disable the whole hips alltogether.

[NLawson]

What there really asking is to take the ability away from the summons because we basically have a way to have true seeing up all the time without the spell being cast, (thru the summons). That way these sneakers can follow us around and pick us off when were not ready.. instead they get spotted right away by our summons and they dont like that.

they got waaay too much power as it is.. I say disable the whole hips alltogether.

They don't like it because it makes the whole build effectively useless - they can't even attempt to get close, because they ALWAYS WITHOUT FAIL get spotted by the permanent TS.

Here's a comparison, this will give you a good idea of why we shouldn't disable hips, and also why summons with permanent TS are a bad thing.

Try making a sorcerer/wizard who specializes in magic fighting - with low str, no real physical fighting ability, and no epic spells. Relying on things like bigby and wilting to grapple and do damage before the fighter gets to you.
Now fight someone who is immune to all spells of level 9 and lower.
That renders your caster useless, just like TS does to sneaks.

Now imagine that, instead of fighting someone who is immune to those spells, you're fighting someone whose summon automatically uses Mordenkainen's Disjunction to counterspell the enemy, and has no limit to the number of casts.

What real difference is there? You still can't win, and your caster is still useless. The other person has just found a little loophole which means they can say "Well it was perfectly fair - he could have sneaked me despite the fact I knew exactly where he was at all times, and my summon was killing him." or "It was perfectly fair, he could still have cast on me despite the fact that my summon countered all of his spells instantly.".

And if you think hipsters have way too much power, try fighting a mage when you don't have any immunities to any spells, and no spell mantles. You can get critical immunity by taking Pale Master level 10 or certain shifter shapes. There is NO way to get full immunity to something like bigby's without an item.
The balance is fine right now.