Palemaster's Dracolich

[Sisyphus]

As a pure palemaster needs to spend 10 levels in other classes pre-epic (a very important point), he cannot maximize any useful skill, save perhaps spellcraft and concentration.  This means, of course, he cannot maximize discipline nor tumble, and is limited to a max of about 48 AB, if one goes 6 figh fighter 4 bard, for example, or less if the distribution is otherwise (6 fighter 4 mage, for instance).

traditional offensive spells are ridiculously useless:

firebrand
ice storm
horrid wilting
chain lightning
missile storms

and any other offensive multiple-dice spells, if the palemaster has any wizard levels.
and the wizard is of course the most powerful recipient of palemaster casting capabilities.

essentially, the offense of the pure PM is, in itself, remarkably negligible, compared to any other *pure* class build out there.

I like what has been done at G vs. M with the enhancement of the PM's summons, but many of these summons have tremendous flaws.  I will note some of these which I noticed to encourage an inspection and alteration where deemed necessary.

The best summons, imo:

Dracolich (base AC is pitiful, something like 37.  also, this creature has no regen at present. 

I suggest an AC of at least 65 [since most melee-builds have AB's of at least 55 to garner some respect], and a regen of at least 3-5 hp per round to keep time with even the most elementary of summons, such as those of Monster Summoning I, II, III, and so on.

Demilich, this has an ac in the 40's, if I recall.  I would suggest something at least in the 50's, if not 60's.

Dark Lord, not bad.  very smart AI.  hastes me all the time.  60 AC, respectable.  a very un-lordly AB, in the low 30's or high 20's.

Lesser Demilich: good enough for all the spellpower it commands, though its AC could use improvement.

Some summons which I feel need some tweaking with AC/AB:

Vampire Druid, (gets killed by Stinger Hive Guards all the time)

Skeletal Monk (this summon is laughable for being a PM 26-level summon.  this means you need a minimum of 29 levels to finally summon this "greater" undead, whereas it may take 29 seconds for a horde of stinger hive guards to show it its due place.

ghost warrior: crappy AC, and the AI is awful, i think it 'sees ghosts' which do not exist, which it then tries to improved whirlwind attack to no avail.


----------------------------

All in all, just a simple boost to the AC's, the AB's, and the regen of these summons would make the pure palemaster a more worthier foe than at present.

But I think the dracolich's case is most imperative.  It dies too quickly in any high-lvl setting.  it needs better AC and Regen.  and maybe that's all it really needs.

[Terrorble]

Good to know.  I can make a few modifications on the summons.

I've had a project lingering to make spells account for shifter or PM levels when cast for purposes of dispel and SR checks and damage dice.  Normally the spells cast at whatever level your casting class is (druid or bard/sorc/wiz) or the spell's default casting level which means they do crap for damage, short duration, easy to dispel, and easy to resist with SR.

I know there's a way to incorporate a portion of your shifter or PM levels into those but it requires messing around with nwscript which is like playing around in the Windows registry for NWN.  Maybe someday lol

[Sisyphus]

Yes, there must be a way, and I'll keep on the search for it.

I suppose that 1 effective casting level per 1 pm level may be too overpowered, and 1/2 seems more reasonable. 

If this is the case though, I would even suggest making pm's 1/2 vulnerable to heal spells and lay on hands, as lay on hands is potentially somewhat overpowered in itself as an attack, I think. There has to be some trade-off, as this would be a move toward increasing the offense of the PM while decreasing its defense somehwat, which is to say, retaining some sort of balance.

[Sisyphus]

the recent changes are appreciated, I wanted to say.

I just think I forgot to mention the Ghoul Lord,... .....
I forget what lvl summon he is, but maybe he should come far before Wendigo...
Windigo has a nice DC death howl which comes very handy,  whereas the Ghoul Lord...

Not a very important issue yet, imo, but for anyone who wishes to finish PM on those levels, may become an issue later.

[NLawson]

Actually I have a question about this....

Why does PM 30 being nearly useless compared to other builds mean that it deserves the amazing summon that it has now? The Dracolich is amazingly strong compared to anything else, so strong that I'd say it's impossible to beat with several types of build (not least sneakers and regular casters). You need at least two people to take it down (one to try and tank it the other to smash it up), because it has access to bigby spells, perm TS, haste, IGMS, Mords, etc, as well as having the strengths of a dragon (eg, huge and strong, and has IKD to boot).

Basically I want to know why PM gets this. Sure - lvl 30 in PM means your build is weak at almost anything else.....
Take 30 RDD and see how good your casting will be - it gives even fewer benefits to casting than PM does (that is, extra spell slots and epic spells), and not as many defensive benefits either. The best benefit is the extra ability points, then I'd say the fire and paralysis immunity, and possibly the extra skills you can raise with it (you get 1 use of the fire breath and it has a reflex save...not worth mentioning) - but since PMs get crit, hold, stun, and paralyze immunity, and 3 extra hp per level, I'd say those cancel out.

When I asked about this in game - why no one takes 30 RDD - I was told "Because that would be stupid, there's no real benefit to it". So why does anyone take 30 PM, ignoring the summons?
People use 10 RDD as a booster. They take it along with melee combat levels for the ability boosts.
Most people use 10 PM and crit immunity the same way...so why bother making the summon so powerful? It's reached the point where the summon is so powerful that the PM can happily sit by in GS and watch as the summon takes over the outpost, or smashes up all the Gonds in visual range.

I just want a reason for the massive upgrade - especially when you consider other classes which are almost useless if you take them to level 30, because the Dracolich is the most powerful summon in the game by far and I can't think of any reason that PMs deserve it.

[Noruas]

use bludging weapon to fight them

[Terrorble]

It has very very little by way of elemental resistance either and I don't think it has any evasion.  Granted it has loads of HP and will tear you apart in one way or another.

The fact that we have not developed RDDs past level10 is not a reason to not develop PMs past level10.

I bet whichever players have their dracoliches are having fun, which was the intent of developing them and making them strong enough to take the time to make it. 

GS only lasts a couple rounds for lvl30PM builds and should be dispelable with an AoE greater dispel or possibly a regular dispel.  A well equiped char will likely have at least one item to cast TS a time or two per day which would help there.

[Abimael]

You think you should be able to kill a dracolich with a sneaker ? >>

Again, never had any problem with beating then with my meleers, even with my monk I can do that, although it takes a lot of time. Full PM's needed that boost to make 'em attractive, and I liked that. Bear in mind a PM has no clvls, no spell power, no disc, no evasion, and a full bag of other 'no's that I don't remember atm.

Wait, since they are so much weaker than the dracolich how about u kill them instead?

[NLawson]

If full PMs are so weak why bother making them in the first place? Why not just stop when the usefulness runs out, like you would with anything else?
And no - I don't think dracoliches should be killable with sneaks - but to be honest anything with Perm TS bugs me, so a perm TS caster with decent ac and spell dc bugs me even more. I don't see why they are as powerful as they are.

If the only reason lvl 30 PM has such an epic summon is because people got to 30 PM and thought "Huh, this sucks, I have no good spells, no ab, and a weak summon" then why not just accept that 30 PM isn't worth getting? My argument isn't so much that the dracolich is overpowered as a summon, it's that lvl 30 PM isn't worth getting for any other reason than the summon - so why bother giving it the summon in the first place and making it worth getting at all? What makes lvl 30 PM worthy of such a good summon?

RDD still has to be the example of choice for me - lvl 30 RDD sucks just like lvl 30 PM does, but I don't think I've seen anyone bothering to get to level 30 RDD, because it's generally accepted that after lvl 10 the class is next to useless.

And it's not that RDD hasn't been developed that bugs me - it's that PM HAS and it's about the only class which was useless at high levels (20+) before that isn't useless at those levels now. It's the only class in it's category which has been developed, the rest have all been left behind.
CoT doesn't have many benefits, aside from the bonus feats, but no one took it to lvl 20+ anyway, they stopped at around lvl 10, and used Paladin for the other levels (though with divine wrath being extended the CoT levels aren't so bad anymore, still not very good for 20+ though).
SD is nearly useless after level 10, though with the extended durations of shadow evade and the better summons it's slightly more workable now, still not worth taking to level 30, and very rarely 20+, I can only think of one toon that took it above 20 and I think that was a one-off. I wouldn't take it above 13 - once i had the epic shadow. Even that shadow, while good, isn't half as strong as the dracolich, and a lvl 30 sd wouldn't be a good enough fighter in this mod (thanks to the abundance of TS items and monsters with perm TS) to make it worth trying.
Ranger is worth taking to 20+ only because Bane of Enemies is an epic feat, and that class has had improvements suggested for it as well.
Assassin is only worth taking AT ALL for the death attack (rogue is better for pretty much anything else, with UMD and more skill points), and since most people have paralysis immunity through freedom items it's not much use at that. Poison is almost useless with all the poison immunity items, and with UMD you can make wands for the spells that assassins get.
I would wager that WM isn't worth getting more than about 7 levels in either, since it's bonuses end at lvl 7, aside from Epic superior weapon focus.

PDK and Harper scout aren't really worth mentioning - we're talking about classes that are not really useful after 10 levels and pathetic after 20, and since these two only get 5 levels (pretty bad ones at that) they don't count.

So that's 6 classes, not counting PDK and HS, that are nearly useless after level 10. Including PM that's 7...why improve only 1 out of the 7 classes, and improve it so much? The dracolich alone makes PM 30 worth taking, without it the class is almost as bad as these other ones mentioned (though ability score boosts and crit immunity make RDD and PM better than the rest, imo)...it wouldn't bother me if all of these classes had such major improvements, or if the improvements to PM were smaller, but the improvements to the other classes (if any) pale in comparison to the Dracolich.

How about I go on a raid with 6 other people and keep all the good loot for myself? That doesn't sound at all fair - the other 6 are just as worthy of the drops, and so are the other classes just as worthy of an upgrade...

So why only PM (so far), and why such a huge jump? I still don't get it...

If you can give me a good reason I will concede that it's fine - but saying "Because lvl 30 PM is so weak we needed to make them viable as a build" is NOT a good reason. Why not just go the whole hog and remove alignment restrictions for classes and make every build viable, rather than just one specific sub-section of Pale-Master builds?

While you're at it - remove exp penalties. If those get removed for everyone I might just be happy enough that I'll shut up about the PM class. Yes - that's a blatant opening for a bribe, and it'd make everyone else happy as well. Win/Win situation...

[nwnolan]

If full PMs are so weak why bother making them in the first place? Why not just stop when the usefulness runs out, like you would with anything else?

If the only reason lvl 30 PM has such an epic summon is because people got to 30 PM and thought "Huh, this sucks, I have no good spells, no ab, and a weak summon" then why not just accept that 30 PM isn't worth getting? My argument isn't so much that the dracolich is overpowered as a summon, it's that lvl 30 PM isn't worth getting for any other reason than the summon - so why bother giving it the summon in the first place and making it worth getting at all? What makes lvl 30 PM worthy of such a good summon?

You have the longest posts ever Lawson... haha. I haven't even gotten to reading the rest of it yet and probably won't. But, one thing I can say to this is: Diversity. To me it adds another build to the list of amazing ones. Does it bug you that they get such a good summon? Dragon builds bug the crap out of me, but like the PM one, it's necessary and just adds another option for epic builds.

Just an idea for something to be never done. Now, if you really want to overpower a high PM build, add PM caster level to caster levels like Tensers. Imagine that. Haha 

[NLawson]

I know I have long posts....but I still don't think "build diversity" is a good enough reason. There are loads of builds that are unusable for one reason or another...why should PM builds (which, at lvl 30 PM, are almost without exception all tanks anyway) be chosen over any others?

Why not make PDK a viable class? That'd jump the number of possible builds by dozens, because no one that I can think of uses it right now, because it's useless.

[nwnolan]

Haha well, it is useless. Actually, I saw a guy who was using it, his thing was bugged or something because he used it then it went away the next round. I'm not even sure if it gave the movement speed increase like it was suppose to.  

Besides that, I can agree to you on that Palemasters already get good, insane Natural AC. What is there Bone Skin feat thing, +2/4 levels? If so, that's +14 AC, non-dispellable AC. Maybe if we look at the Role Play side of all this? They're are super in-touch with the Undead and as such they can summon super powerful undead? I dunno, just my gander. If I used that word correctly. Perhaps this. They can super tank yes? You give them Autostill-Spell 1,2,3, Throw in some sequencer buffs and if you go cleric and sorceror, a divine shield. That gives them tanking meaning they can't get hit, but that's it. I don't know if that's a viable arguement.

But as I have heard before, they have absolutely NO offense in the least bit. Spells will do no Damage, put in a bad Spell Resistance and that will usually do it in. They also have no DC as well. AB, what, 2 attacks per round and 30 AB as high? I think that this summon makes up for this. I don't have the stats on what the Dracolich has, and I am willing to bet that it is high. If anything, this means that they are good at farming and hogging up space.

[NLawson]

Perhaps this. They can super tank yes? You give them Autostill-Spell 1,2,3, Throw in some sequencer buffs and if you go cleric and sorceror, a divine shield. That gives them tanking meaning they can't get hit, but that's it. I don't know if that's a viable arguement

Not good enough for me (a tank is a tank, not a hitter, you have builds that deliberately sacrifice AC for AB and vice versa) but you did point out something interesting:

See those spell abilities you lost by taking a defensive class rather than sticking to wiz/sorc? Here, have them back, except separate them from your body, put them in a separate body with 65 ac (which is good for any pure sorc/wiz) give them TS and go and hide round the corner and watch them rip up your enemies.

And we'll do this for you simply because we think that having to take 30-40 sorc and end up being squishy just to get this kind of power isn't fair, so you take your tanking class and when you're done we'll give you all your spells back. Enhanced.

[Abimael]

1 year ago, shifters were useless until they made 'em what they are today. 6 months ago, Bgs didn't even get past 5 or 6 lvls and their summons were lame, CoTs were fighters with better saves, Holy Sword was a useless spell, there were no SD with more than 10 lvls, double weapon wms didn't exist and Druids were taken only to make dragons. I really don't think they overpowered one class and left all others behind.

Nolan said it all, and in a few words: it adds build diversity, and I'm always up to that.

[NLawson]

Granted I forgot about shifters. That's a fair point....though I did include them in the list of "good" classes.
There are rarely any sds with more than 13 levels now, and I can only think of one toon I've ever heard of with more than 20 (which is my point)
CoT I can't say I've ever played, but I haven't seen much more from them aside from divine wrath's increases - and still rare to see 20+ in CoT.
Bgs have smite, their main focus is melee ability and they get sneak attacks, they don't need summons...I included them in the "good" category. Was that a mistake? I'll concede that one then.
There are rarely any double weapon wms these days either - though I have seen 2h weapon masters thanks to the shield ring thing from corsairs.
Druid spells I'll concede is another.

So what about Rangers, Sd 20+ (considering taking 20+ lvls in a class was my main point?), CoT 20+, Wm 10+, PDK, harper scout, assassin, and RDD?

PM is still the only one I mentioned worth taking to 20+ levels, and only thanks to the summon. I wasn't pointing out that the classes were useless, just that taking more than 10 levels in some was useless, and 20+ in most was useless. PM is the only one that has gone from being 20+ useless to lvl 30 = uber, the rest may have improved slightly (eg, spell changes to CoT and Druid, summon changes to SD and BG), but they're still nowhere near as powerfully boosted as PM.

[azurerogue]

I'm confused about the awesome summon because PM 28 was worth it even without summons at all....why give them extra candy for losing 4 AC (from maxing tumble) and having lower discipline? 

10 Base
6 Robe
3+6 Shield
14 Dex
6 Amulet
6 Ring
4 Haste
4 Boots
5 EMA
1 MA
2 Armor Skin
16 Bone Skin
4 Tumble
-------------
87

That's 87 AC by taking 30 PM.  Yes, 28 PM would be a more efficient use of levels (and 25 even more so).  But no other class gets rewarded for ignoring "break points" in their leveling efficiency.  If PMs get a boost that actually encourages people to take a "pure" take on the class, then maybe (just maybe) other prestige classes should get some cool benefit for taking a "pure" 30 levels?  I can't think of any other Prestige Class that gets rewarded for choosing to be inefficient over min/maxing. 

That being said, I don't REALLY care.  I'm fine with Dracoliches...  I'm just confused why the prestige class that was *most likely* to be taken to high levels before got a rather large reward for giving up a relatively small level dip.  I guess the biggest sacrifice they make is giving up UMD.

I mean, you can still get 50-60 Discipline in the build if you want through items/epic skill focus just by cross-classing it.  That's not great, but with 87 AC they're only hitting on 20's most likely anyway, so just hope that the 20-roll comes up on a lower attack and you pass the Discipline check. 

[Khaine]

Yes, the dracolich is clearly not OP.

62 AB, 8 attacks per round, 65 AC, Epic Warding, crit immune, and I had no chance vs the Dracolich. Also tried with imp exp, giving me 52 ab and 75 ac, and it still hit me.
Why, you ask? Because the PM is just standing next to his pretty little summon, spamming heal kits on it with maxed Heal skill.

"Just kill the PM". Yeah, fat chance of that happening when he's got insane AC, 50% conceal, crit immunity and enough disc to resist the few KD attempts that do land on him, while his dracolich rips me to pieces.

Also, if luck would shine on me and grant me 15+ rolls of 20 in a row, bringing him down to badly wounded, he can just cast GS and heal himself up again.

A tanking toon (and that is what a pure PM is, don't try to sugar-coat it as being a "summoner") shouldn't have that high offensive power. Other builds that get epic summons each play their own roles in PvP/raid.

No one builds a pure PM because they want to do damage or buff, just like no one builds a 2h barb hitter to tank. A 2h barb hitter is a sitting duck in PvP, as are high AB AA builds, if anyone comes in melee range of them. Tanks shouldn't be able to survive any and all melee melee opponents, while at the same time being able to annihilate them with their summon.
Every other specialist build has their own drawbacks, the PM does not, since the dracolich prety much gives him what he lacks in offensive power.

It's like playing 2 characters, a tank and a sometimes mentally challanged lvl 50+ heavy hitter/sorc/pm. Yes, it can sometimes act a little stupid, but it makes up for it in being a hulking behemot of death and destruction.

The argument about PMs needing to be viable if players take 30 lvls in it is lame, at best.
Yes, take away the dracolich, and most players won't make a lvl 30 PM. But I guarantee you you'll still see toons with 26 lvls of PM (got me a build with ~105 ac, epic dodge, imp evade etc with 26 lvls of PM), because they're still very useful for their own little niche, which is tanking, well beyond lvl 10.

You don't give barbs a boost of +20 ac becuase they're weak defensively, so why give PMs a seriously powerful summon because they're weak offensively?

[sestitodc]

Imo, they should make a 30 level SD's summon either the Balrog, or Aragorn/Witch King, depending on the faction (haven't decided yet which would be fairer), since there actually are advanatages to taking lots of PM levels and they get an epic summon, while anything more than 13 SD levels is a complete waste. So a 30 SD's summon should be a lot better, since overall the character will be a complete joke.

[azurerogue]

Also, give anyone who goes "pure" shifter (30 levels) the ability to shapeshift into any of the summons (including the yet-to-be-introduced 30 SD Balrog summon) other classes get.  Currently there's no reason to take 30 levels of Shifter (even the level-scaled abilities aren't worth it).  So, in the interest of fairness, let's make 30 Shifter WAY better than it needs to be, just like 30 PM ^^b

[NLawson]

Actually since the Balrog is made of fire and shadow that's not so crazy Sest...and I'd quite like to shift into any summon XD

Can we give level 40 rangers a tenser-style spell, and call it "mighty morphin' power"? Then we have to give them a choice of 5 summons, and when you have all 5 summons in one area they combine to form and uber-summon.

[azurerogue]

lol @ the Ranger idea.  I'd make one tomorrow if they got that power (actually, don't even care about the power, just any self buff with that name =D).

[mirelbesic21]

Hm i thought server goes in party ways, like you need TANK, HEALER, HITTER , CASTER, i liked the idea now again going to was lets solo the damn realm?

High lvl areas should be no soloable as far i know, maybe 30 lvl PM would go much better with Hitter in party?

On other hand its not PvP build with 30 PM lvls its normal you gona be pawned. But sorry to give a summon who will bring PvP at your side is just not normal.

PM 30 lvl is tank and nothing else.

[Khaine]

The people hath spoketh, my lieges.

[Abimael]

Cot builds?

23 bard/2 "Choose"/ 15 CoT. If you start with 16 cha u'll have 2 minutes with +16ab bonus, -5 Ac from song, 7 unrest damage

ranged 24 rogue / 1 sd / 15 Cot. about 60 ab to use in surprise ranged attacks that will certainly deal about 100+ per round if u win initiative, ignoring any dodge dodge bonuses. Plus, uber saves. Get Slippery Mind, Improved Evasion and u'll have about 1/400 chance of failing a reflex/will save.

I don't know if u read what Terroble said in another post but double weapon wm get their current deflection ac PLUS the bonuses listed, almost killing the disavantage they have of low ac.
(maybe a 25 wm / 5 HS / 10 fighter)

HS's got some love, but the problem is that their +ab bonus pot doesnt last too long.

Before wipe, I really don't remember to have seen a smiter BG with the frequency I'm seeing now. Maybe because Rade's made one and with the changes, but it's only speculation.

Truth be told, I didn't read all of that post u made, Lawson.

But I have to agree on that, after seeing the Draco's stats, 62 ab seemed a little high. About 50 - 60 seems fairer IMO.

EDIT: read of azurerogue said...

Have u ever saw the ability of Illithids? Psychic blast? DC is 10 + shifterlvl/2 + wis mod. Needs to test this, but I think it pierces through any kind of immunity to mind affecting spell u might had. Now, make a monk shifter with 28 Shifter lvls, put as high as u can points into wis, and u'll have about a 43 DC attack that can't be immunized against... and will leave enemies hopeless... and deal damage...

[Rade]

Off topic:

Before wipe, I really don't remember to have seen a smiter BG with the frequency I'm seeing now. Maybe because Rade's made one and with the changes, but it's only speculation.

It's not inaccurate. Some people have alleged they had BG smiters before me, but I sincerely doubt it. The only reason it works is because of the inflict serious/critical wound changes, bulls strength (bonus attacks especially), and of course the epic summons.


On topic:
Now, my problem with PM summons being so uber, is from experience fighting one of these PM 30s. Basically you sit there bashing away (often missing, even with 65-70 AB) and they just spam healkits while their summon stomps you. If you try to take out their summon (immune to WoF and other instant dismissal spells) they will simply start to heal the summon which is a little easier to hit, but has as much HP and pops heals like an endless bucket of curly fries.

When I PvP, I like to actually fight players, not monsters. I don't like the idea simply because it goes against what I like to see in the server.