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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Character Builds  |  Spellcaster Builds  |  Human - Sorcerer 29/RDD 10/Paladin 1
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Author Topic: Human - Sorcerer 29/RDD 10/Paladin 1  (Read 10582 times)
NLawson
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« on: 16 July 2009, 20:22 »

My second ever completely original build Grin (Alando Marna is my first), and the first one I'm going to post up on these forums (going to build it in GvM, but haven't done so yet...I just thought it up a couple of hours ago, and just finished building, testing, and writing this massive post).
I say that it's completely original - but it's possible (probable, in fact) this has already been thought of....however, I did come up with this build all by myself, so PLEASE comment on it giving me tips on how to make it better. This build is meant to be a caster build to supplement a team with at least one strong tank, it will almost never hit in melee because it's AB is too low, so a weapon with a bonus feat or ability bonus is recommended.

Race: Human

(EDIT): Alignment is Lawful Good (Paladin) - I doubt anyone needed me to tell them that but you never know...And you might be able to make something similar with two Blackguard levels, dropping a Sorc, but you'd need to drop both evo spell focus feats to get power attack and cleave. Smite good/evil can be ignored with such low AB, which is why only 1 Paladin level is taken (another could be taken for immunity to fear, but with high will saves it would be a waste). (End EDIT)

Abilities:
Str 12-20
Dex 8
Con 16-18
Wis 8-10
Int 14-16
Cha 16-32
All ability increases used for Cha, with other bonuses being given by RDD levels.

Skills at lvl 40:
43 Discipline,
43 Heal,
43 Concentration,
43 Taunt,
35 Spellcraft,
20 or 8 Lore (20 for identification of items, not neccessary),
20 Tumble (cross class)

12 skill points left over if lore is left at 8.

Level progression - 6 Sorcerer-> 10 RDD -> 23 levels of Sorc -> 1 Paladin:
Feats:
1) Extend spell and Combat casting
3) Spell focus Evo
6) Empower spell
9) Greater spell focus Evo
12) Spell focus Necro
15) Greater spell focus Necro
18) Still spell
21) Armor skin
24) Great Cha
27) Great cha 2
30) Epic spell focus necro
33) Epic warding and Mummy dust
36) Improved combat casting and Auto-still-spell 1
39) Auto-still 2 and 3

Based on any weapon with +5 enhancement:
UBAB is 22/17/12 (3 attacks per round, no dual weild)
+5 enhancement bonus for weapons
+7 str modifier
Final BAB is 34, unbuffed. Melee fighting is not advised unless essential.

Final AC at lvl 40:
10 Base AC
+8 full plate base AC
+3 Tower shield base AC
+4 Tumble AC
-1 Dex bonus
+2 Armor skin
+4 RDD AC bonus

Final unbuffed AC at lvl 40 = 30

NOTES:
  • The high Con or Str could be reduced slightly to give a small dex bonus, which would add 2 AC.
  • AC can be raised to 59 with +5 items (+5 each of dodge, armor, shield, natural, and deflect AC = +25 AC) as well as Haste for +4 ac (58 rounds thanks to extend spell).
  • The RDD levels also give immunity to sleep, paralysis, and fire.
  • Divine Grace, along with 32 Charisma (+11 modifier) mean saving throws are high. This, combined with high Str (for a caster) and maxed Discipline, makes him hard to take out of action through any means other than killing him directly.
  • Premonition, Epic warding, magical shields and mummy dust mean you shouldn't be overwhelmed easily in a fight, especially with epic focus necro and negative energy burst (heals mummy)/wilting/wail.
  • Evocation focus provides extra damage for spells like wall of fire (+2d6 each for normal and greater focus), but can be swapped for a different spell school if so desired.


Until lvl 40, AC is slightly lower due to the inability to wield shields and heavy armor, and saves are lower due to lack of Divine grace.

This build should do well against DC casters, due to it's high saves and immunity to fire, but since I haven't tested it against other players I have no idea how good it will actually be.
It should also be good against mobs, since due to epic spell focus necro, and the high charisma modifier, wail and wilting will have high save DCs.

Let me know what you think! Constructive criticism is welcomed, and compliments even more so!  laugh
« Last Edit: 17 July 2009, 00:19 by NLawson » Logged

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parknutz
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« Reply #1 on: 16 July 2009, 22:33 »

Not sure where you are getting +6 weapon enchantment?The highest Greater Magic Weapon can go to is +5. Even with high saves the lack of evasion will still hurt against spells that aren't fire based.
« Last Edit: 16 July 2009, 22:41 by parknutz » Logged
NLawson
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« Reply #2 on: 17 July 2009, 00:23 »

My bad - I meant to put +5 but I must have hit +6, and then when I did other things (like my sums) I just went with the values I'd typed on the screen. That's fixed. Doesn't make much difference anyway...you shouldn't be attacking in melee with this build PERIOD.

As for evasion - get a Lucky One shortsword. That gives improved evasion as a bonus feat.
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« Reply #3 on: 17 July 2009, 00:31 »

Sorc RDD Pally would better served with more pally.  IMO  Was this 34ab??? ---Ouch.  I think there could be a good mix in here but I wouldn't play this at all.  If its a caster sorc pally rouge or sorc pm bard are much better combos.

Maybe Sorc Cot RDD?  Sorc RDD Monkl??  As is I don't think you could hardly level this.
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NLawson
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« Reply #4 on: 17 July 2009, 00:46 »

Maybe Sorc Cot RDD?  Sorc RDD Monkl??  As is I don't think you could hardly level this.

Fair enough - I'm testing how hard it is to level in game at the moment. There's no real challenge for lvling purposes until I get to at least level 15. And don't forget - you can make this a supporting caster until it gains really good spells, because one of the best ways to level in the mod is to work in a group.
I have thought about it beforehand though - and I'm going to test it out a little bit and see how difficult it is. If it's too hard, or has no good spells, or takes too long to be useful, I'll tweak it... As I've said multiple times in game, I'm not a good builder, I just like trying new ideas out. If that sparks something, that's good, if not...meh it's only a few hours spent tinkering around, no harm done.

I know about the sorc pm bard and sorc pally rogue builds, but to be honest they're way too typical. Everyone knows about, for example, the Exalted Sorcerer (32 sorc 4 rogue 4 pally), I'm trying to come up with something new, not simply re-use old builds...I appreciate the input though.

Feel free to take this build and improve on it, if this build sparks something good in someone's head then it was worthwhile, even if it wasn't a good build in itself.
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Abimael
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« Reply #5 on: 17 July 2009, 00:49 »

sorc 26 / 10 RDD / 4 Pally is something I had thought before for a tenser build. The leveling was  a bit tricky though:

Pre epic, go for 8 RDD / 4 Pally / 8 Sorcerer. That way u'll get 6 + 4 + 4 pre epic bab, so at 40 u'll have 24 BAB. With 26 sorc, tenser will give 13 ab, plus 5 from weapon u'll have +18 ab from magic.

24 bab +18 magic + 4 feats + 18 str = 64 ab. Walk with a bard and u'll get 66 ab, which is not bad.

Since tenser gives an extra attack, u'd still have the same number of attacks as a hasted fighter, maybe even better but I'm not sure how the ab resseting works so I'll just leave it at that

There are some problems: u won't have taunt, and leveling tenser's builds are very, very annoying. You'll only get strong in your 30s.
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« Reply #6 on: 17 July 2009, 04:32 »

Well, with all due respect, I'm not sure how RDD helps here.

Usually people seem to take it for 1 of a few reasons, usually in this order of importance:

1)+8 str bonus (for melee builds), +2 Const
2)immunity to fire, paralysis (semi-immunity to fire can be had with evasion, PM has more critical immunities imo.
3)+4 ac (in general, but for 10 levels? ... PM is better for this, of course, or simply take 10 more levels in your base class, getting at least 2 free epic feats instead)
4)+2 bonus to CHA, or Int (for those pesky high-DC casters who'll trade just about anything for a fraction of an inch of power)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
1)the 1st point mentioned above is negligible--this is not a melee build and you'd be better off wearing boots of striding +6 if your AC will be maxed around 59 anyway.
2)better off wearing some item with freedom and multiclassing with a class with evasion.  rogue, shadowdancer, and monk, appear best. why? free up more epic SORC feats.  Epic Mage Armor, IMO, is a must. Sorc's need high AC. they should have epic focus discipline also so when they're hit they have less chance of being kd'd.
3)if AC is your thing, PM helps large.  virtually 1 AC for every 2 levels.  That's like a free Armor Skin feat every 4 levels in addition to your basic bonus feats.  PM bonus feats include ALL epic spells.
4)If not going melee as per point 1, this may be the only other strategic reason to take RDD, which is to have the highest casting DC possible, but which would use up most of your epic feats for Great CHA or Great Int, leaving you very little left, if any, for much-needed epic spells and epic skill focus discipline (unless, perhaps, you were a WIZ/Sorc/RDD or Wiz/Bard/Rdd, as Wiz gets massive bonus feats to compensate).

Further point: Combat Casting and Improved Combat Casting are useless if you quickslot "Defensive Casting Mode" and click it with your F-key whenever you go into spellmode. 2 free feats right there which you can use for possibly toughness (which replaces +2 Const from RDD), and epic focus discipline or Epic Mage Armor.  

Let me know if you disagree, but that's mainly why I tend not to multiclass RDD with Sorc's--I've not made a melee-based RDD-Sorc yet.  But it seems like it's not a bad idea.

In fact it's a great idea, and I like the other suggestions given by others here so far, including that involving Tensor's.


« Last Edit: 20 July 2009, 05:41 by Sisyphus » Logged
pinkpuff
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« Reply #7 on: 17 July 2009, 04:35 »

tonoplast had a 26sorc/4paladin/10rdd before the wipe, Sorcadin was the name I believe. It was a great build that had like low 60's ab and good ac/damage with divine shield/might. But then they changed tensers from 3 extra attacks to 1 and it suddenly became pretty mundane...much like my tenser archer..

Still not much point in building any sort of melee that isn't a cleric, you will be behind from the start if you do.

And as for the caster build that this thread is about...  Cheesy

The 10rdd lvls don't do enough to make them worthwhile and 29 caster lvls just quite simply isn't enough.

Either sorc/paladin/rogue or 38sorc/1cleric/1bard.

*edit*

cleric or paladin for divine shield, epic mage armor is a wasted epic feat and won't get you max dodge ac without divine shield anyways Tongue
« Last Edit: 17 July 2009, 04:39 by pinkpuff » Logged
NLawson
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« Reply #8 on: 17 July 2009, 18:42 »

To answer almost everyone in a very general way:
I'm not a good builder. I'm actually a really BAD builder...

Despite what you may think (and how I worded my first post) I didn't post this up here because I thought it was a brilliant build...I posted it up here because I thought it COULD BE a brilliant build once the better builders have torn it apart and rebuilt it. I did consider PM levels to be honest, but that means the Paladin level(s) would be impossible, and I'm determined to find a Sorc/Pally/RDD that works. I doubt I'll succeed though.

Anyway - my point was, I put this up here so you guys could do exactly what you're doing right now. Now that I've put it up - I probably won't be responding very often (because my input is negligible compared to a lot of others - my ideas are generally bad) but I'll certainly be reading it and trying to get ideas of what seem to be good or bad choices when building toons.

I'm still in two minds over whether to post the other build I thought up - I would quite like input on it, but I also don't want to hear about all the problems with it >_<
Anyway - thanks a lot guys ^_^ by all means keep throwing ideas around.

Oh - and on Epic Mage Armor, I agree with Pinkpuff: It gives a +5 bonus to a lot of different AC types, but it also lasts a very short time, and there are probably other items or spells you already have which do the same job, if not better. I've seen plenty of items with relatively high deflect armor shield and natural AC bonuses, the only useful bonus would be dodge, and that's not worth an epic feat.
I'd rather take Hellball or dragon knight, even though I know hellball is hardly the best spell on this server, and I know dragon knights get stuck a lot in small spaces Tongue
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« Reply #9 on: 18 July 2009, 03:28 »

Epic Mage Armor actually lasts until you rest or are killed I think.

But, with other items being worn it only really adds the 5 dodge ac. Divine Shield on the other hand last 1 round per cha bonus (should be +15-16 on a caster sorc) so you get 16 dodge ac for 16 rounds...add in 4 dodge ac from haste and you are at the +20 cap. Which as was said earlier here that you can then use the uber +con boots to get max hp fairly easily since the dodge bonus on the boots would be useless.

Wanna make a fun but dispellable build?

Try Bard20/Sorc18/SD2, go dex and get 20cha. 16bard/4sorc preepic. You end up with something like 61ab under tensers, mid-high 70's ac, and lasting inspiration for your song/curse.

Or go 23sorc/7cleric/10rdd. You can get 6 attacks at about 66ab and really good damage with divine might. Also gets divine shield, auto stills, and warding.
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Mistress Zevia Shadowlust
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« Reply #10 on: 18 July 2009, 04:31 »

Quote
As for evasion - get a Lucky One shortsword. That gives improved evasion as a bonus feat.

No longer available on the server.
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NLawson
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« Reply #11 on: 18 July 2009, 04:44 »

Epic Mage Armor actually lasts until you rest or are killed I think.

Oh - did they change it on this server? It should be 1 hour per lvl normally, but I'd have thought it'd be reduced, like mummy dust and dragon knight and all that.

No longer available on the server.

Another pre-wipe item? Somebody really needs to sort that wiki out...it's been, what, 6 months now? I've had a few ideas for my toons that I've had to change upon learning that the item I was after has changed or doesn't exist now.
And from what's been said, I think the lack of evasion is the least of this builds problems... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #12 on: 18 July 2009, 06:20 »

Oh - did they change it on this server? It should be 1 hour per lvl normally, but I'd have thought it'd be reduced, like mummy dust and dragon knight and all that.
You're right, it's 1 hour per level. The reason it lasts until death or rest is because it's an "extraordinary effect" and therefore cannot be dispelled. Because it lasts 1 hour per level (i.e: 1 min/level) and most casters will rest in less than 30 minutes, it seems like it lasts forever.
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« Reply #13 on: 18 July 2009, 08:42 »

Because it lasts 1 hour per level (i.e: 1 min/level) and most casters will rest in less than 30 minutes, it seems like it lasts forever.
2 minutes/level even...

1 hour == 2 turns == 20 rounds == 2 minutes RL time
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NLawson
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« Reply #14 on: 18 July 2009, 16:53 »

lol Rade can't do sums  Grin
I still think it's a waste of an epic feat - I mean you could get the same effect permanently by wearing the right armor (which you should be doing anyway, in case caught while resting) and if you have a good team with you, your mage shouldn't get hit too much anyway...
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« Reply #15 on: 18 July 2009, 19:07 »

It has its uses - since it give +5 deflection and natural , undispellable ac bonuses, you can free a ring and an ammy slot to use better gear.
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« Reply #16 on: 20 July 2009, 02:58 »


Try Bard20/Sorc18/SD2, go dex and get 20cha. 16bard/4sorc preepic. You end up with something like 61ab under tensers, mid-high 70's ac, and lasting inspiration for your song/curse.

That's a wickedly cool idea, though SD might be redundant?  With all that Charisma, wouldn't Cleric's Divine Might be a better investment? (and optional Divine Shield)

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« Reply #17 on: 20 July 2009, 03:59 »

Definitely post the other build you mentioned.  Evil

AND after some thought I favour the 26 Sorc/4 Pal/10 RDD spread, probably going no more than 20 base CHA when finished.

Lvl 1, start with Sorc, to avoid wastng stats on Wisdom, which you won't need as a Paladin (no spells at lvl 4)
at Lvl 2, take Paladin, to get martial and armor feats.  From Lvl 3 Paladin, you begin taking Divine Shield and Divine Might.  Spread these wisely in order to gain both before you reach lvl 20.

15 STR
8 DEX
14 CON
8 WIS
14 INT
16 CHA

Boost CHA ONLY TO 18. (+2 CHA from RDD will boost it naturally to 20)

Boost STR for all remaining level-ups, finishing at 38 STR which includes 3 Great Strength feats, allowing a total STR of 50 (with +12 str from items, spells), which means +20 damage per hit with a normal weapon and +30 damage with a two-handed one.  Not bad for an epic-speell casting Sorc--and don't forget you also get up to 11 divine damage added, from Divine Might.  That's at least 31 extra damage whenever you kick something.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-Epic, take these feats (divine shield/divine might must be timed for LVLS 3 and 4, on a feat-level)

(in some semblance of order)

Power Attack
Still Spell
Weapon Focus: any martial weapon (after Pal level)
Improved Crit: any martial weapon (after Pal level)
Divine  Might
Divine Shield
Extend Spell


Pre-Epic Levels:

8 Sorc
4 Pal
8 RDD

or

8 Sorc
3 Pal
9 RDD
(if you want to maxizmize taunt later, at the cost of 1 BAB)

-------------------------------

Post-Epic

Great Strength I
Great Strength II
Great Strength III
Epic Mage Armor (or Epic Spell of Choice)
Epic Weapon Focus
Epic Warding (or Epic Spell of Choice)
Auto Still I
Auto Still II
Auto Still III

-------------------------------------

When finished, you should have 52 AB with a +5 weapon you focus in, with a +6 ab boost from maxed strength items--unbuffed, hence undispellable.

You have access to 9th level Sorcerer spells including Timestop, Bigby's Crushing and and Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

You will be able to attain decent AC from Divine Shield, Epic Mage Armor, Haste, and cross-classed 20 ranks in Tumble.

You can get up to 11 bonus divine damage per hit from Divine might.

You can cast Tensor's Transformation to gain up to 13 Bonus AB

(After some thought, this may be one of the best arcane-meleers I've come across)

One question to others:  Does Tensor's count toward the max +20 AB cap?

With just one buff (Tensor's), this toon would be at 65 AB.
If dispelled, cast again.  Just a one-spell solution, unlike that of a cleric.   Azn
Smite should be at 76 AB, (not something you'll rely on).  

Only dispellable by others arcane casters too, maybe.  What do you think?







Anyway - my point was, I put this up here so you guys could do exactly what you're doing right now. Now that I've put it up - I probably won't be responding very often (because my input is negligible compared to a lot of others - my ideas are generally bad) but I'll certainly be reading it and trying to get ideas of what seem to be good or bad choices when building toons.

I'm still in two minds over whether to post the other build I thought up - I would quite like input on it, but I also don't want to hear about all the problems with it >_<
Anyway - thanks a lot guys ^_^ by all means keep throwing ideas around.

« Last Edit: 21 July 2009, 03:58 by Sisyphus » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: 20 July 2009, 05:29 »

I think dropping 2 great strength feats would be worth picking up epic prowess and armor skin. You get same ab, 1 less damage, but 2 more ac.

*edit*

And with 11 dodge ac from divine shield, 4 from haste, 4 from boots, and 1 from lvl 1 mage armor you are at the +20 cap. So i'd use the sorc bonus feat on a diff epic spell besides EMA. Likely Greater Ruin, its great to have when you are bashing someone and they try to run from you, can't cast normal spells under tensers.

Also you have this build is listed as having 7 feats pre-epic. Based on the starting ability scores i'd say this build is human so you actually get 8 feats. Knockdown or Toughness would be the good choices I think.
« Last Edit: 20 July 2009, 05:35 by pinkpuff » Logged
Sisyphus
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« Reply #19 on: 20 July 2009, 06:56 »

Good points.

That's enough damage there already, so your suggestion of armor skin is a good one, coupled with prowess.

Greater Ruin is a nice option, despite its DC being a wee low, but it's sure damage while under Tenser's, which I didn't know was possible.  So yes, if you don't mind recasting Divine Shield once every 11 rounds (w/ haste, which can be extended for up to 52 rounds) and using armor ammy and armor ring, Epic Mage Armor does become optional if not redundant.

I must have miscalculated or missed something when I forgot toughness or KD.  Probably KD is the way to go here, as the AB is worthwhlie to work with already.  Nice job picking up on it.

All in all, your suggestions would make it better, good call.
« Last Edit: 20 July 2009, 07:03 by Sisyphus » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: 20 July 2009, 19:16 »

I'm in awe Sisyphus, I really am. There isn't a smiley here to show my expression, so I'll just go O_O"

I'm going to build that in a training mod right now, and then I'm going to steal that build and make it in game because I don't have a decent all-out meleer.

Not only does it have access to Mordor and bigby, but it also has access to true seeing, see invis, premonition, flame weapon, keen edge, bulls strength, endurance, improved invis, etc.
That's a lot of things you can use to buff up, when you have the time.
Not only that - you have 2 epic spells (I would go with warding and ruin myself) which you can cast while transformed, and so when fighting someone extra powerful, or someone who's running away, you have those spells as backup.
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« Reply #21 on: 20 July 2009, 22:54 »

Justa note, you need 19 cha to get 9th lvl spells. You'd need to change 1 Great Str for a Great Cha so u could get them. Also, I missed seeing Blind FIght, a good feat to use against improved invis and (less used) displacement spells.

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« Reply #22 on: 20 July 2009, 23:38 »

Blind Fight is a must on the server. I would still take Pink's idea and drop the 2 Great STR and get Blind Fight and Epic Prowess.
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« Reply #23 on: 21 July 2009, 00:07 »

the 8th feat preepic would be blind fight.

And RDD levels take the base CHA to 20.
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« Reply #24 on: 21 July 2009, 02:19 »

Yes, the 8th pre-epic feat I missed was sure to be blindfight (now there's where that missing feat went!)

And I'm totally with dropping 2 great strengths for 2 of Armor Skin, Epic Prowess, or Knockdown.

I'm glad you like NLawson, I might even go ahead and make one like this later too, after I finish my smiters and my wizard.  I couldn't have found it without your query and the input of others, so thanks for inquiring too.

BTW, I guess the best perk of RDD is it helps to get ability prerequisites. (+2 cha, for instance)  That's why CHA is left at 18 at first.  +8 to str, +2 to const, +2 to int, and +2 to cha, for a paladin, sounds great to me.  


P.S.: You can delay your 4th Paladin level to lvl 39 or lvl 40 level up if you want to maximize Taunt, at the cost of 1 AB loss.



« Last Edit: 21 July 2009, 03:53 by Sisyphus » Logged
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