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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Players Forum  |  need a rules clarification - AGAIN effy pvp
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Author Topic: need a rules clarification - AGAIN effy pvp  (Read 8238 times)
Angry
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« on: 05 August 2009, 04:16 »

3 or 4 gonds in crossroads, 1 dead Mordor(7 lvls higher than me), and me just coming in.  I innitiated with Gondor 2 lvls below me, and chased him.  As I crossed 2nd Gondor while chasing the 1st, I attacked.  Killed him and showed him 8 lvls below me.  Didnt know he was there or what his lvl was, but didnt check while chasing either.  As I contnued chasing the 1st Gondor, he ran me by a 3rd Gondor, who came out of hiding to sneak attack me, then disappeared.  I kept chasing 1st, until he GS'd and left area.

I did not check the level of the Gondor I killed, and he was an effy kill.  Not an attack of opportunity, though I needed to check my log after to be sure.  In pvp, I was just trying to kill em all. 

Question - Is anyone in the party thats in pvp a target, or do I need to pause, identify the level of my enemies, and hope they dont bigby me while I do this?

Full disclosure - I do not know how many of the gonds were involved with the pvp against the dead Mordor.  I assume all as they were travelling together.  Didnt consider it relevant until I wrote this post.

This happens a lot, so instead of reading this as an airing of grievances (look up my posts, I dont do it), please consider this a request for clarification or rethinking of a relevant issue.
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NLawson
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« Reply #1 on: 05 August 2009, 04:41 »

Let me beak this down into manageable chunks. I'll highlight useful info in your post, using underlined stuff in brackets.

3 or 4 gonds in crossroads, 1 dead Mordor(7 lvls higher than me) (Dona Clotide), and me just coming in.  I innitiated with Gondor 2 lvls below me (Probably Eddy), and chased him.  As I crossed 2nd Gondor (Corn) while chasing the 1st, I attacked.  Killed him and showed him 8 lvls below me.  Didnt know he was there or what his lvl was, but didnt check while chasing either.  As I contnued chasing the 1st Gondor, he ran me by a 3rd Gondor (No he didn't, I went down to Rez Dona who myself and Galdor had just killed, and I attacked on the offchance that it would hit), who came out of hiding to sneak attack me(Which I did), then disappeared.  I kept chasing 1st, until he GS'd and left area.

I did not check the level of the Gondor I killed, and he was an effy kill.  Not an attack of opportunity, though I needed to check my log after to be sure.  In pvp, I was just trying to kill em all. 

Question - Is anyone in the party thats in pvp a target, or do I need to pause, identify the level of my enemies, and hope they dont bigby me while I do this? (As far as I know and have been told, effy people are off limits unless they attack you. I don't like it either, but it's the rules)

Full disclosure - I do not know how many of the gonds were involved with the pvp against the dead Mordor.  I assume all as they were travelling together (You assumed we were travelling together, we weren't...Eddy stole my and Galdor's kill).  Didnt consider it relevant until I wrote this post. (Fair enough, I know how hard it is to check who you're fighting WHILE you're fighting them. It's a problem...but I don't think there's an obvious solution.

This happens a lot, so instead of reading this as an airing of grievances (look up my posts, I dont do it), please consider this a request for clarification or rethinking of a relevant issue.

I don't like the rules about party pvp either. As far as I'm concerned if there's a legal enemy in the area any other enemies should also be legal...but they're not.

Anyway, that might help clear things up a little. Even if just a little.
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sestitodc
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« Reply #2 on: 05 August 2009, 04:51 »

What's more annoying is the two 40 mords going around effy killing, rez killing, cursing over shout, killing members of there own faction and not rezzing them, etc.
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NLawson
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« Reply #3 on: 05 August 2009, 04:54 »

Bugar and Jebus, (Destrug and El-Chupracarba) yes. I'm just waiting for Turril to get on and see the flurry of PMs with screenshots.
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ollebroc
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« Reply #4 on: 05 August 2009, 05:58 »

The rule is simple......ALWAYS CHECK.

You just can't attack anybody who may innocently be walking by.
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« Reply #5 on: 05 August 2009, 14:11 »

takes all of 3 seconds to check.
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Angry
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« Reply #6 on: 05 August 2009, 16:58 »

1) If rules are always check, I am guilty of an effy kill.
2) Bugar and Jebus are a separate issue.  Lets leave it to DMs and not escalate.  Jebus happens to be the same player as my 'effy kill', as I found out when he logged on.
3) Lawson, I didnt know that he stole your kill.  I saw gonds in the xrds and a dead Mordor.  And I knew or suspected you and your other bookend (the Reclaimer twins) were there as well. 

Ollie and Pinkpuff - I respectfully disagree.  (not on the rules are simple part - youre a dm and have made I ruling.  the end)  But the simple, and 3 seconds part, I do.  In party pvp, more than when an effy is lurking on you (other post), the 3 seconds to check isnt always there, as in my episode, or is enought time for the other pvpers to target you and finish you off.  I would like to see a rule change on this, and I believe that Im not in the minority.

Its not reasonable to ask someone in pvp already to ignore a target that may then attack as soon as you turn away, or wait til you're engaged with their partner.  If anyones partying up, then theres a 7 lvl range, and pvp is a 5 lvl range, so anyone in party should be a target if theres pvp going on. 

Anyway, this is obviously all opinion, but I'd love to see this rule changed.
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Mistress Zevia Shadowlust
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« Reply #7 on: 05 August 2009, 19:42 »

takes all of 3 seconds to check.

Christ your Slow Pink.... I can shave that down to about 1-1/4 second. Grin  And that's not even using my special mouse with the Grip Tape on the Trigger finger.  Evil
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sestitodc
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« Reply #8 on: 05 August 2009, 20:09 »

It takes me about three seconds cause I lag whenever I examine someone Tongue.
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« Reply #9 on: 05 August 2009, 20:41 »

Hey hey, I was allowing a buffer for slower players.

No excuse to not check, unless they attack you first.
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Khaine
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« Reply #10 on: 05 August 2009, 20:58 »

I don't like the rules about party pvp either. As far as I'm concerned if there's a legal enemy in the area any other enemies should also be legal...but they're not.

I disagree.

If a lvl 30 is running around with a lvl 23-25 guy or two, and encounters a lvl 35 guy and his lvl 40 friends, you're saying that the lvl 35 guy should be able to attack the lvl 30, and then he and his friends can start smacking the lvl ~25s?

Rather, it should be so that _IF_, and ONLY if, the lvl 25 attacks first, then him and his party is fair game (if he doesn't want his effy friends to get involved, he should've played it safe). Much like I've been told one of the current rules is that if you attack someone and his impossible friend is nearby, you're fair game to the impossible guy (even though he may be 6+ lvls higher than you are, as long as he is within 7 lvls of his friend who's getting attacked).

If the level 35 attacks the lvl 30 first, then the lvl 40s should stay out of it, unless they're getting hit as well, IMO.

My 2 GP.
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NLawson
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« Reply #11 on: 05 August 2009, 21:06 »

Hmmm actually that sounds fair.

If a lvl 30 is running around with a lvl 23-25 guy or two, and encounters a lvl 35 guy and his lvl 40 friends, you're saying that the lvl 35 guy should be able to attack the lvl 30, and then he and his friends can start smacking the lvl ~25s?

Rather, it should be so that _IF_, and ONLY if, the lvl 25 attacks first, then him and his party is fair game (if he doesn't want his effy friends to get involved, he should've played it safe). Much like I've been told one of the current rules is that if you attack someone and his impossible friend is nearby, you're fair game to the impossible guy (even though he may be 6+ lvls higher than you are, as long as he is within 7 lvls of his friend who's getting attacked).

The best rules for that situation, I would say....would be that if the 35 engages first, normal pvp rules apply and the lvl 40s should stay out of it, also - he's not allowed to attack the lvl 25s unless they attack him first (which would also make them legal for the lvl 40s).
If the lvl 30 attacks the lvl 35, that should immediately make both him AND HIS TEAM-MATES legal for the lvl 40s to attack, as well as the lvl 35 to attack, EVEN if the lvl 25s don't actually get involved, since their team-mate launched the attack.

That's essentially what you're saying right? If so - I agree. It does sound unfair that a lvl 40 would be able to attack a lvl 25 just because the 40s team-mate attacked the 25s team-mate. if the 25s team-mate goes first then they brought it upon themselves...
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Khaine
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« Reply #12 on: 05 August 2009, 21:44 »

That's essentially what you're saying right?

Exactly.
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Angry
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« Reply #13 on: 06 August 2009, 00:10 »

I agree.  I think Khaines approach is fair.  If the higher lvl attackes first, his buddies cant get in on it, PLUS he cant go for effys in the opposing party unless they engage.  but if he's attacked, the whole party becomes fair game.

Would love to hear from the DMs on this as a rule change.
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« Reply #14 on: 06 August 2009, 01:44 »

    Three effies walk into a bar. One walks over to the Nine Mens table for a friendly game. One walks over to the dart board. The third walks to the bar to get a pint of ale. Meanwhile sitting in the corner, three high level players: Zevia, Pinkpuff, and Parknutz. Zevia and Pinkpuff were playing a game to see who can make the bigger rings while smoking thier Toby Weed while Parknutz is going over the plans for thier next invasion into the White City.
    The dart playing effy decides to purposely throw a dart at Parknutz and sticks him in the butt. Pinkpuff quickly goes into buff mode, Zevia does a quadruple sumersault onto the table behind the dart throwing effy unseathing his rapier into the effies back, while Parknutz quickly casts a bigby to hold the effy in place.


Does Park, Zev, and Pink attack the other two effies just because they happen to coincidently walk into the bar at the same time?

No, they give the other effies the choice to leave or die. They are not legal targets unless they stay or attack. They can stay if they agree to stay out of the fight and buy each of our heroes a keg of ale. The dart throwing effie will be begging for death, which will come slowly and painfully.

Why are all 3 attacking the effy? Cause they're clearly in a traveling party while the 3 effies are not.

Everyone is a spy!!!!  bagend
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« Reply #15 on: 06 August 2009, 06:00 »

let me start by saying that i am also eddy torrez, so i saw it all. good job angry/clevar, usually when someone tells their side it is slanted towards making them look good. but you were fairly accurate. NLawson. thank you for clarifying details. even more precise. (and sorry about kill stealing, i even used high damage spells when he was near death so i could get the shout) Angry, you said there where 3 or 4 gonds and 1 dead Mordor when you entered xroads, i believe. this means there was not PvP going on when you entered. which you reiterated in your later post. You attacked Me, i ran, you killed The Great Cornholio. he did not attack you. Yes, you are guilty.                                                            now, to address jebus/bugar issue(which is not a seperate issue) We rampaged and killed like crazed weasels. Yes we are guilty. Since you and i are guilty of breaking PvP rules, shouldnt you get punished along with us? Yes we broke over 20 rules in less than 20 minutes. (we would of broken more but couldnt find anyone) why is this worse than all the rulebreaking going on? we did this to bring focus to this problem. people do it all the time then lie about it. noone is held accountable. when i was an effykilling noob, a DM (Ollie) was always there to insta kill then peepeespank me. EVEN worse, its not just noobs, its people that have been here as long as clevar or longer. Then they lie about it. It has sickened and frustrated me. Stop breaking rules then saying you feel justified because you think the rule should be changed. Stop saying, oops it was an accident. ( funny, when i am level 40 i dont get level 30"s accidentally attacking me. but when i am 20, level 30's seem to do it all the time. BS) dont change the rules, enforce them. zero tollerence, zero excuses. BTW if i am to be banned, can i log on? Zevia has clamed dibs on my gear. with his skill and my gear, you may be creating a monster. angels claimed what zev doesnt want.
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« Reply #16 on: 06 August 2009, 06:22 »

Look, I actually agree with destrug, I mean yeah he and jebus killed me more than anyone else on the rampage, (lol) but am I mad? No.   He has a perfectly logical point, READ his post guys, don't just write it off.  For example, I was killed by a lvl 40 a while back, his excuse was that I looked like another lvl 40.  Lol, I thought the blue dye made me look 36 ish, but ah well.  I was actually lvl 22.  This was one of the most pathetic excuses I've ever heard but that's beside the point.   I'm saying all these accidents are not accidents at all, so don't pretend (oh and I think we all know rajado banido speaks english....and even if he dosent, he attacks effies on sight, no excuse for that...actually, I have a screenshot of him telling me he will kill me on my effy toon, written in english, when I get the time that baby is getting uploaded.)  anyways....like he said, nobody ever attacks 40s on accident.  Also, before we go changing effy pvp rules, why don't we let the dust settle from the effykilling happening right NOW, I mean damn, don't make it TOO easy for these guys.  But yeah, what desttrug and chupacabra did is no worse than what most people do every day (by the way, no big deal about the kill steal, we have all been there before lol) 
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Mistress Zevia Shadowlust
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« Reply #17 on: 06 August 2009, 06:33 »

*looks around and starts going thru the Must Farm sheet and begins scratching things off**

Well then..... Its clear to me what must happen here.....


Ban the little Rule Breaking Bastard!!!! Evil






















Kidding of course....<---- Fine Print
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« Reply #18 on: 06 August 2009, 15:49 »

Why must I get hit in the buttocks with a dart?!?! Guess I do take most of the punishment in that trio anyway.
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Angry
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« Reply #19 on: 06 August 2009, 15:59 »

I wont get into the facts of the issue except to point out that you two were obviously travelling together, as you tend to do, and as you'd just finished killing a Mordor in xrds thats higher lvl than you, theres a certain gray area about me coming charging to the defence of the xrds.  Im guilty because I didnt know if you attacked the Mordor or he attacked you, which is sort of splitting hairs.  And as you stole the kill from the other mords, it doesnt sound like there was anyone in there avoiding the combat.  But maybe El-chupa was, so as I say, Im guilty.

The only difference might be that I broke a rule without intent, fessed up, ressed the wronged party, and got to listen to his childish diatribe for what must be the 50th time.  I even said I'd check with DMs on the rule, but if I was wrong, I apologize...over shout.  I then went to the boards to put up one of my VERY few posts to try and get to the bottom of it.  On the board I was as honest as I could be (everyone's recollections are a little different, due to perception).  

You 2 logged 40's to retaliate, attacked your own faction multiple times and anyone els, abused everyone on the server, and didnt ress.  

Note there are no personal attacks in the above.  Just facts.  Even the childish diatribe part is a fact.

The punishment part is at DM discretion and I wont comment on it either way, nor will I complain at whatever they decide. I was obviously guiilty, if unintentionally, and said so in the posts above BEFORE your little tantrum.  You two were intentionally guilty of effy killing, not ressing, griefing, swearing (El-chupa, not you destrug), and being all around people that I wouldnt enjoy spending any time with at all.  I dont know if a banning is appropriate or not, but certainly a time-out, and maybe a spanking.  I would accept it if Turril took away your action figures for one week, as I know my 4yr old son finds that a tough punishment as well.  (that was a personal attack, completely uncalled for, but as it made me laugh, it will stay.  Hopefully just amusing enough to lighten this stuff up, so we can go back to the game.)
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« Reply #20 on: 06 August 2009, 17:05 »

You know, much as I hate to admit it, I agree with Destrug as well. Yeah, he and Chupa logged on and went on a rampage...though I did think that the attempt at martyr-dom at the end (by Chupa, I think) might have weakened the point(s) slightly, the point(s) IS (or are) still there.

The point that I see is that there isn't much that can be done to enforce rules unless there's a high-level DM on, like Turril or Terrorble (not to offend any of the other high level DMs out there but these two spring to mind instantly), who can instantly stop and punish ANY rule-breaking by docking levels, by perm or temp banning, or (in Turril's case) by deleting the offending toon completely. The problem is that there's not always a DM on to stop the problem. I would like to point out that Angels did about all he/she (I don't know =S) could do, and reset the server, but that's not really a solution, just a temporary set-back.

I'm not sure what the solution to this could be. If you increase the number of DMs you also increase the possibility of power abuse...However, the DMs are obviously busy which is why they're not online, so...

I'll let you guys work this out. I've only been here a few months so I won't get involved....but you and Chupa really annoyed me, Destrug.
I can see WHY you did it, and I can appreciate how difficult it is to make that point in any other way,  but I'm undecided as to whether that excuses the behaviour itself. I mean if you're seen to get away with it, it might ruin the point you worked quite hard to prove.

I still think you should be punished, but perhaps a ban is too much. Possibly docking 30 levels or so, or deleting a lvl 30 or so toon would be enough (I say that like it's not still a big punishment...). I don't believe the end justifies the means, but I think you meant well, even if the method (despite being about all you could do) was flawed.

That's about all I can think of for now.
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« Reply #21 on: 06 August 2009, 19:30 »

Hay,

     As I see it, it was a solution.

       They stopped!! Thats all i wanted at the time. And for the 1st time in my life I got what I wanted. LOL.

     If it had not worked. Then I would have done something else.

    Oh, for the record Angel-angels is a married guy at a university trying to pass math right now, wish me luck!!   I HATE MATH!!!!

Have a good day
Wake
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« Reply #22 on: 06 August 2009, 23:33 »

sorry to innocent bystanders i killed during rampage. especially that unfortunate level 8 guy in stalkers abode. sancho, nlawson, thanks for understanding. i understand if you are mad. was nothing personal against you. angry, you forgot to mention the thing that set us off was when you told chupa that you realized you effy killed him and that you were glad you did before he could have stabbed you in the back. must be the thin air up there on your high horse has effected your memory. ( that was my little personal jab. wow, it does feel good) being the worst offender in all this, heck yeah i'd like to put it behind us. lol. we will see. have to go now, zev is backing up the U-Haul and he has angels with him.
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« Reply #23 on: 07 August 2009, 02:07 »

I mean seriously? 
 Ok the party pvp rules are pretty dam clear..cant find em..check your journal they are there everytime you log in. Let me make it even more simple.....IF YOU ARE THE ATTACKING PLAYER IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILTY TO BE SURE THAT YOUR TARGETS ARE LEGAL.
ok let me make it as simple as possible for the party pvp rules.....
a party may attack anyone that is a legal target...ie a party of 3 toons lvl 22 25 and 27 run into a lvl 21 toon..ONLY THE LVL 22 AND 25 CAN ATTACK as he is EFFY to the 27....if the 21 attacks any first....and i dont mean he wins initiative i mean if he starts the battle then the lvl 27 may defend his group..BUT ONLY THEN   
if the same group of 3 toons runs across a lvl 40 and the lvl 22 decides to attack, the 40 may only attack the effy that attacked him. NOT THE ENTIRE PARTY. you cant punish everybody present because one player is suicidal. if all 3 attack then teach em a lesson, but only if all 3 attacked
 I was going to just start deleting toons that effy kill but i think the next time ANYTHING LIKE THIS SHIT HAPPENS AGAIN i will just click the server over to NO PVP. Poof problem solved. Screw the pvp xp, points for increasing drop rates all of it, or defending faction areas. You morons take this way to serious. You seem to only care about effy kills if you are the killed not the killer and then scream about it. 
 If anyone has anyquestions about what to do in a pvp situation please pm ME so i may clear it up for you. If you are in game and nto sure what to do...you are best to not attack and be safe as I am tired of thise crap
What has this world come to when i actually totally agree with pinkpuff   BangHead

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