Horses vs Fighting Style

[calbrenar]

Games not going to win any contests in graphics new animations or not.  Taking 3 hours to reach a loc sucks.  If horses go we need an epeditious retreat item w/ unlimited charges that won't work in combat

[azurerogue]

So what you're saying is, "The only way for a warrior to counter a mage on a horse is to use a horse himself.", correct?
So this makes horses redundant then...since they grant such a massive boon that the only way to counter them is to use horses yourself and level the playing field, why bother with them at all? Why not just remove them, and level the playing field that way? It would have the same effect in battle as giving NEITHER side horses, with the only real effect being that people would have to walk places, relying on a friendly mage to party with them and haste them (which is no real loss at all considering the amount of lag we would lose) ...

Alando (as I call you) you know I love you, but this is silly.  Most mages have "constant" access to haste, so they can run away even after being debuffed.  Most warriors don't.  Thus making horses (which are not affected by haste/expeditious retreat/slow) an effective way for melees to deal with mages.  Just my opinion.  I actually believe horses should go, but the other side deserves a fair "balance" argument. 

[Mistress Zevia Shadowlust]

A budget version of horses were added to game via Clawing bear.  They've been modified and made to work well enough, People have designed and made builds around the use of them, and the mod is enormous. I personally don't like horses that much except on specific toons. but I use them constantly to get me around so i don't have to carry a ton of Boots or other gear to get me to the far reaches of Middle Earth in the limited time I have to play this game. 

A lot of time and effort went into to adding and keeping these things. Now that they are here, keep em.  Animations are nice to have as well but I play this game for function over graphics. Its far too old to be worried about how you dude slices and dices at this stage of the game.

[NLawson]

Alando (as I call you) you know I love you, but this is silly.  Most mages have "constant" access to haste, so they can run away even after being debuffed. 

Yeah but casting the spell takes time (and they only have a certain number of casts) - and if you can debuff a mage you presumably have scrolls or a wand or another mage handy to do the same again...

If they're on a horse, nothing you can do will let you catch them unless you DO have another mage with you to slow them down (bigbys is about the only way), or unless they make a stupid mistake (ie, wrong turn) or have a slow computer and take ages to transition.

A warrior on a horse could possibly beat a mage on foot, since horses are faster than haste (as long as the warrior didn't get bigbyd) and once you've caught the mage it's over.
A warrior on foot would have low hopes against a mage on foot, the mage would have haste, so unless you got lucky (or had haste items) you'd be stuck.
A warrior on a horse would have no advantage against a mage on a horse, except perhaps that their speed was equal to the mages now....though they would still be unable to overtake him and so catch him if he ran.
A warrior on foot would have no chance at all of beating a mage on a horse, unless they got a lucky hit or smite in and did 200-300 damage in one blow.

A monk on foot (with decent amounts of monk levels, say 16-20) would beat a mage on foot (even hasted) almost certainly.
A lvl 20 monk is immune to mind spells (no bigby spells for mage), has a 60% speed increase (and so is 1.5 times faster than normal, same as haste), has stunning fist and quivering palm, to kill low-fort toons, and has 6 attacks unarmed even without haste.

This is one of the main reasons for the monk's bonuses. To kill mages.

[azurerogue]

I agree with most of your points.  But I have to ask, does mind immunity actually stop Bigby's?  It should just stop the paralysis if I'm reading the description right.  Even WITH mind spell immunity they'd still be grappled (meaning they can't chase you).  Grappled = can't move but can still take actions (attack those next to you, use heal kits, NOT flat-footed).  Paralysis & Grappled = nothing, flat-footed, probably dead soon.

[NLawson]

As far as I know (I haven't tested it between two players but I have seen the effect) having mind spell immunity causes the little "Globe of invulnerability" to pop up (like if you use wilting on someone with shadow shield) and the spell does nothing at all. No rolls, no grapple, no paralysis, no hand at all.

EDIT: Tested the above - the spell still hits but doesn't paralyze, like ya said.
One thing that now confuses me, I've seen the spell do the "no effect" image on other NPCs who don't (I think) have immunity to bigbys spells...I have a funny feeling they were undead.

Freedom will prevent the paralysis and allow you to attack (this confused someone I fought when I continued to blast them with spells when I was bigbied...I thought everyone knew about it) but WILL prevent movement (when the hand is on you but you can still heal etc), and the hand can be always dispelled (either by you or someone else) at any time.

If you have the time, I'll show you at some point.

[cosmic_pariah]

I wanna change my vote to horses. I aint runnin to rivendel w/o one

                                                          cosmic

[azurerogue]

One idea to revamp the horses idea (to make them less of a combat bonus - as NLawson pointed out) would be to make them work more like they do in pen and paper.  Instead of your Ride check granting YOU bonus AC (which I've heard doesn't work here anyways, which is good) a ride check is needed simply to stay in the saddle (and a higher DC to actually perform combat actions) unless your mount is a trained war horse.  Now, I can hardly believe (despite their title) that the people of MT and MM have an unlimited supply of war horses... 

So, if it were possible, make it so that the horses purchased at the Horse Vendors require ride checks of certain DCs or else you suffer -X to AB (and possibly AC) while in combat.  This would hopefully help to keep horses as more of a traveling method than a way to get up close and personal with a mage without having haste.  Paladin's and Blackguard's mounts would, if possible, not require this because not only are they trained war horses, but they are actually supposed to be a Celestial being who resides on a different plain that has connected with them and their cause (well, for the Paladin anyways).

Just a thought, not even sure if all this is possible. 

[pinkpuff]

You can buy items to give you movement bonuses in the cities already.

Horses belong in the glue factory.

[MasterThief]

Fighting please what does a monk want with a horse 

[NLawson]

OK so if we count Cosmic's vote as changed (a DM would need to decide whether that's possible or not) then we're dead even at 11 each.

When does the poll end, by the way? We can't wait for EVERYONE to post....

[Rodriquez]

Fighting styles are just eye candy
Horses serve a purpose as transport.

 I vote horses

Yay horsies !!!

[pinkpuff]

I'm fine with horses as long as they give big penalties.

People can say whatever the hell they want, but fact remains, on a horse your dexterity should be 0.

[Nobutadas]

Horses.  When I run from MT or MM to the other end of Middle Earth, I want to get there before and have time to kill stuff before I have to log.

[Rade]

Okay, so the alternate combat animations I have (override) are:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Models.Detail&id=13

But I see they've released a v3.0 Beta since then (2003):
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Models.Detail&id=12

The 2.0 version I can totally vouch for. I like it way better than the original animations and it works better than the "animation fix" in my opinion. Only problem is, it doesn't support 1.68 cloaks, but those disappear on horseback anyways.

[Wake of death]

Hay,

    Here is version 4.0


     http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Hakpaks.Detail&id=5895



updated 08-03-2008

[ollebroc]

I never said that we'll be getting rid of horses. Bioware horses were not in conflict, CEP horses were. We don't use them right now anyway. This was just an offbeat observational question.   

We won't be installing the Alternate Combat animations. They conflict with the CEP phenotypes that we use.

You the players may use them for now. 

[azurerogue]

Why is your smiley brushing its teeth?

[janngus]

Well, everyone should once in a while...

[Artuha]

I vote horses, and i've changed the fighting style snimstion manualy whenever i want, so horses for sure!

[janngus]

Horses, of course! My blackguard is really attached to his nightmare, he would miss it.

[cosmic_pariah]

I wanna change my vote to horses. I aint runnin to rivendel w/o one

                                                          cosmic

I officially change my damn vote!~

With perma haste now real and horses are rarely ever used, I think this topic needed a bump.

cosmic

[bad_karma]

Portal to each and every area from Eru, unlimited use.. Hell, they can look like horses for all I care!

*bump*