Shifter Advice

[azurerogue]

I've been contemplating making a Shifter (two shifters, really, but that's beside the point) for some time now, but I think I must be misunderstanding something about the Helmed Horrors (or just misunderstanding something in general)...

So, if someone could help me with a few questions I'd be very appreciative.

1) Can Helmed Horrors get decent AC?

Based on the thread with the information on them, they don't get a set DEX score (it doesn't look like), so even assuming you started with like 14 DEX and buffed it to 26, that's +8 from DEX.  Other than that, they're AC looks like it would be low...  I would assume the +7 DODGE from shifting to Helmed Horror counts towards the +20 Dodge bonus, right?  So, even with all +6 gear and +20 to Dodge (from either bard song+haste+shape+boots, or divine shield+haste+shape+boots), you're looking at a base of 64 (I think, including armorskin).  I guess you could get to 68-72 with Tumble.  Is that a good AC here (I'm still unclear on that). 

2) Is their inherent sword/immunities what make them so good? 

3)Any general tips I should know before trying to build one? 

Normally I would just run some numbers and then test this kind of thing in a private module that I have, but since I don't have the customizations to armor merging / shape changes on my local module I'll have no idea how any of my "tests" would compare to "reality" in GvM.  I just don't want to waste time making a Helmed Horror Shifter to find out I messed something up completely. 

Thanks a lot!

[nwnolan]

That is one of the reasons I have never tried to make a shifter build for GvM, because I can't get accurate numbers. As for the 72 AC, that is decent. If you ever were to go up against a player AA though, it wouldn't do a whole lot of good. But, AAs have quite possibly the highest AA on this server, the good ones hitting 80. The high AB melees from what I have seen hit mid to high 60's. I can't say a whole lot for the mobs and bosses out there, but if your planning on tanking with 72 AC, well, that's up to you. I know that most people that do tank have 80+ AC.

[azurerogue]

The 68-72 is based on whether you cross-class tumble (Cleric/Druid/Shifter) or find a way to take it as a class skill (thus the range of 4).  So, I'm not really sure 72 is feasible....but yea.  I'm really hoping to either here back from (or talk to in game) Rade or Red, since they both have Shifters that I've seen in action.

[NLawson]

I'm really hoping to either here back from (or talk to in game) Rade or Red, since they both have Shifters that I've seen in action.

Try -Firecracker- as well - if I remember right it's him who uses Outsider (a shifter build) and from what I've heard he knows quite a bit about them...he might have some info you could use.

[sestitodc]

Red and Irade both have Cleric constructs, which get mid-high 60s ab. Fire has a Bard construct, which probably hits about 60 ab, but also brings bard and curse song to the party. Turril has a Barbarian construct; think it should have low-mid 60s ab. Barb construct can also get an outrageous taunt. Pink has a Wizard/Tenser construct; think he said he has about 65 ab.

[azurerogue]

Thanks for the info so far.  One more question: what damage reductions/resistances does the Helmed Horror get, if any?  I see the immunities it gets (% wise reductions) but I'm wondering if it has unlisted resistances or damage reduction like the Demonflesh Golem (which usually occupies that spot) did?

And thanks for the information about other players with Shifters, I couldn't remember who Outsider was, and I didn't know about the others. 

[Abimael]

Look on the Players Forum a sticky post named "Mod Updates". There you'll see a BIG lettered link on one of the posts by Ollebroc in which is written "Shifter Shapes Change" (or something like that).

[Terrorble]

http://www.gondorvsmordor.com/gvm2/forum/index.php?topic=397.0

[azurerogue]

Appreciate the link, but I've already read that post thoroughly (the first thing I did before posting was search "shifter" which obviously brings that thread up quickly).  I was more looking for feedback from people who have played them.  I ask this after seeing Rade and Red in action last night on their shifters.  But thanks for the help.  I think I've got what I need (aside from catching one of the shifters mentioned in this thread in game).  Thanks again everyone. 

[Redaurora]

maximum possible cleric helmed horror ending ab is 25 bab + 19 str + 4 feats + 1 aid + 1 bless + 5 favour + 2 btide + 3 divine power + 1 prayer + 6 weapon + 1 (any source really, blood frenzy, bard song) + 2 (outdoors) = 70

68 while indoors or in an unnatural environment.

shortcomings is low discipline (comparatively), you can still get it highish if you really want to.
relatively not great ac, muchhh better than almost any other two-hander build you'd find though.

It's not meant to be a tank, though it does work in a pinch with a healer spamming it, its good because the incoming damage is predictable, and you wont get triple crit for 200 ea -> dead

I first made the build just before the wipe, I had about 30 ac, and didn't care, the dr items made up for it, aragorn was hitting me for 7 i think.

I tried the same thing now before i realized how much DR was nerfed, now I'm trying to get a bit more ac into it ;p

It's immune to horrids, most (i think all) of the bigby spells, and some other stuff, it says golem immunities in the wiki page, but it doesn't get immunity to all spells that allow sr, be nice if a specific list were there...

also being 50% magical/acid immune having knockdown as a bonus feat etc, I'd assume it was meant as a mage killer.

[klixon]

It's immune to horrids, most (i think all) of the bigby spells, and some other stuff, it says golem immunities in the wiki page, but it doesn't get immunity to all spells that allow sr, be nice if a specific list were there...

I assume it's the normal immunities all golem shapes get:

All forms gain immunities to: critical hits, sneak attacks, death magic, poison, disease, level drain, ability drain, mind-affecting spells, and paralysis.

[Abimael]

Mage Killer? No...

2 words: Chain Lightning

another 3 words: Maximized Flame arrows

more 2 words: Ice Storms

yet another 8 words: any reflex based spells will work on them

That beeing said...

The cleric option relies on HUGE ab and INCREDIBLE damage to dispatch foes quickly. Since you're crit immune, you'll also be able to resist enough to see the victim die quickly

The barb one has maybe the best taunt of the server - 20 from shape plus 20 from terryfing rage leaves open about 10 from the max bonus from items. I imagine Turril must have taken all kinds of feats to maximize that taunt as well, including ones like "Thug" and so on

The mage one is similar to the cleric. You sacrifice the damage and some of the ab to use damage shields and Epic Warding.

[-firecracker-]

I think the 50% acid DR on the helmed horror is incorrect - it looks more like 25% in battle logs (not sure about magic).

Also not sure about them being immune to horrid, if they are I have never noticed and I think its immune to crushing hand out of the bigby spells.

To give you some idea of my bard version. Fully buffed with song, AC is 66 and AB is around high 50s to 60, add on effects of curse and taunt to that too. Taunt currently sits at 94 which can be increased with any taunt items the mod may have, but 94 is enough to taunt anything exept a couple of bosses who have a concerntration in the 120s (corsair captain being one). Discipline is over 100. Personally I wouldn't try play a construct as a tank, you can't heal yourself or switch items and AC is relatively low - other builds make better tanks.

[Rade]

If you're looking for AC, Wizard is definitely a good option. With expertise mode you can still pump out hits at roughly 62 AB on top of already decent AC.

I wouldn't say 72 AC or lower places you in the "kill or be killed" category; where you must out-damage an opponent(s) before it kills you. That's basically what's going to happen if you're playing a cleric or barbarian helmed horror.

As a cleric/horror I get 68 AC with external buffs (like a high-level barkskin with +8 natural AC), and 66 AC by my own buffs. I have 71 AB at level 40 with outdoor bonus, 69 otherwise; and I've seen the combat log as high as 73 (I'm assuming this is flanking). The damage output is definitely high with crits of 160+ and a 15-20x2 crit range - the +6 enhancement weapon tears through dragons and most other damage reductions.
The discipline also isn't that bad. I get 99 discipline after managing to squeeze in epic skill focus discipline at level 39.
I get 900 HP.

As mentioned, you do get Knockdown, Disarm, and Cleave as bonus feats. You're also immune to some spells like Word of Faith (very nice!), but I don't think it's immune to horrids (I've been hit by them several times).

If you're looking to try something different. I was pondering a weapon master/helmed horror. Weapon master gets access to some useful class skills for helmed horror, like spot, discipline and listen. You could put a lot of points into dexterity, and pick up a couple great toughness feats.
You would probably need to travel with a bard for haste and song to be really effective, but it could be an interesting variation. You'd also get access to some great weapons that require weapon master; I'm just imagining Rohan's Glory with 13-20x3 crits.
If this interests you, send me a PM and I'll sketch out how I would build the toon.

[Redaurora]

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Horrid_wilting

Undead and constructs are unaffected by this spell.

Anyway, golems by definition are meant to be immune to all spells that allow spell resistance, but thats just me not liking NWN

Rade, im at a loss as to where that extra +1 ab is coming from, ive accounted for bab str feats and the +20 bonus as well as druid bonus there, apart from the +2 flanking 70 shd be the max...

Abimael, i get the impression that the horror will get through most mages hp (and better than an alternate meleer) than the mage will kill it with those spells.

The real reason they dont work super well vs mages is they get stripped by disjunction -_-, and can't redo their buffs in a pinch.

[azurerogue]

You should be immune to Horrid Wilting as per the spell description: "    * Undead and constructs are unaffected by this spell."

And I think I just might PM you about that Rade, it sounds like a fun variation to me. 

[Rade]

You're right Redaurora, 70 is max. My mistake.

[azurerogue]

So here's a question, then, looking into the potential of a Druid/Shifter/WM...

Since the Helmed Horror wields a two-handed weapon, would you get the WM +X Deflection bonus added into your AC as well? 

[sestitodc]

No, the wm Deflection bonus only applies to double-sided weapons and quarterstaffs.

[NLawson]

Though I'm sure I heard mention of a ring that allows that bonus to be used for Two-handers as well...? I might be talking garbage, but Turril mentioned he got a drop for the corsairs captain person of a special ring for Weapon Masters...

[Rade]

Though I'm sure I heard mention of a ring that allows that bonus to be used for Two-handers as well...? I might be talking garbage, but Turril mentioned he got a drop for the corsairs captain person of a special ring for Weapon Masters...

Yeah, Tiny in City of Corsairs. It has +5 (Shield) AC, only useable by WM.