Red Dragon Disciple's Dracolich

[janngus]

Here is what I think it would be nice for RDD, one of the most popular prestige classes. Its main features are the ability boosts, natural armor, dragon breath and wings (useless in Neverwinter).

I will explain in lenght here, and summarise at the end, for the lazy and for the busy people.

The epic one already gains +1 AC for each 5 class levels, dragon breath damage increase (1d10) for each 3 levels and +1 save DC for each 4 levels, a bonus feat (no great choices, however) every 4 levels, and that's it.

You end up with someone that has a dragon breath of 12d10 once per day with a Reflex DC 24, ability boosts, low ab, and +8 natural armor. Not attractive.

The RP says that the epic rdd seeks to "understand and harness his draconic energies". So I tried to make him more draconic here. I looked at pnp Red Dragon, Red Dragon Disciple and the half-dragon template.

Wings are useless here at Neverwinter. They are superb at pnp. At pnp, RDDs get a flight speed of twice his base land speed. Wings can be used to fly near ground, Neverwinter-style. So I say: give a epic RDD a movement bonus of +10% every 4 lvls. That gives a +50% at lvl 30, like a lvl 15 monk. No ripping off of monks here, since you have to be lvl 40 for that, and that is only giving wings a purpose.

Half-dragon's dragon breath DC in pnp is (DC 10 + ½ half-dragon’s racial HD + half-dragon’s Con modifier). It would give a lvl. 40 a DC of 30+con modifier. Far more than the 24 we have here. So, give a epic RDD's dragon breath DC increase of 4 for each 4 levels. A lvl 30 would have a Reflex DC of 39. Not uber but competitive. I think that since Evasion is an issue, Dragon breath is not very dangerous, and it's damage is not so high. Let the damage as it is.

Dragons use their breath once every 1d4 rounds. That's too much, of course, but lets house rule more uses here as well, since this low damage isn't enough for a one shot ability. I say one aditional use for every TWO (!) epic class levels, eleven uses at the end, with a delay of 1d4 rounds, or a fixed one.

Dragons get something called Frightful Presence. I think it would be a nice addition. Their Frightful Presence DC is (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier). Give lvl. 30 RDDs a Frightful Presence that can affect others of their level or lower (all other players, but not all monsters), with a DC of 25 + cha modifier.

I see him as more and more like a red dragon, a master of fire, of draconic majesty.

As you can see, these progressions reward pure epic RDDs. There is some room for ideas, still, namely red dragon's casting abilities (divinations and spells from chaos, evil and fire domains, not all of them but maybe some, I would favor some fire spells), his spell resistance and damage reduction.

That is RDD's Dracolich that I envision. What do you people think? Let's talk about it!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
In a nutshell, it could be ADDED:

+10% movement and +4 (instead of +1) Dragon Breath DC for every 4 lvls of epic RDD.
+1 Dragon Breath use for every 2 lvls of epic RDD.
A delay of 1d4 rounds between Dragon Breath uses.
Frightful Presence of DC 25+cha modifier at lvl 30.

Maybe we could add some fire domain spells, some spell resistance or some damage reduction.

What do you people think? Let's get this idea moving!

[NLawson]

I actually think this is a pretty good idea...anything above 10 RDD is useless right now (as has been covered at length in the other dracolich post) and so I think an upgrade (though nothing too uber) would be nice. I've also summarized this at the bottom so don't complain.

Couple of comments on it, but nothing much:

I would make the dragon breath timer a fixed timer of maybe 3 rounds or so. That means the RDD would get the about same average number of uses per fight as the PnP RDD, but it would limit them to not torching people every 6 seconds. Take a deep breath and then exhale quickly, and see how often you can do that when you consider this guy is also gonna be ducking and weaving and swinging and such...once every 20 seconds or so seems about right. I don't know about evasion, I'm not sure how many other spell like abilities (like that stupid annoying acid blob from the goblins, and such) have evasion applied to their saves (I would assume all) and I'd really need to know that to make it fair...if evasion applies to everything else apply it to this, otherwise leave it at a reflex save for half damage like hellball.

The speed increase would essentially be a permanent haste movement speed (but not attack speed) at lvl 30 - which is pretty balanced when you consider Barbarians can come close to that (if not meet it) by level 30 or so, with the various rage bonuses (I don't actually know if anything other than greater influences speed, in which case it would be about lvl 15, same as the monks  )

As for fire - I would maybe give them a flame-weapon-like ability, 5 or so uses per day, at level 20 RDD...but rather than being the same as the flame from the spell or from the ring of illusory fire this would just be a fire damage bonus of maybe 5 + (half RDD level), or 5 + (Cha modifier), depending on whether you want to view it as an innate red dragon ability or as a special red dragon spell. I wouldn't apply this to shifter shapes, since those dragons are fighting dragons rather than casters, and so wouldn't have access to this spell/ability/whatever.

If fire domain spells could be included as RDD abilities that would be cool - but if you did that then I think you'd need to introduce a cold vulnerability to them. For example: When they reach level 10 they gain 5% (just a random guess, possibly higher depending on what else was included) damage vulnerability, and at lvl 20 and 30 they gain another 5% respectively, making a 15% vulnerability to cold at lvl 30 RDD. This would help to balance the added firepower (rofl) gained from extra flame uses and additional fire spells, while not to the same extent as the PM's vulnerability, because the RDD doesn't have as many benefits (no summons, no crit immunity, no hold or stun immunity).

I like the frightful presence idea, but I don't know what it does...could you explain please?
I think if we apply frightful presence to RDDs we should also apply it to shifter dragons once they reach a certain level - they're technically dragons too, and they're just as scary. I'm not well versed with shifters, so I leave that to someone else to work out.

I don't know about damage reduction, though I know full grown summoned dragons (shifters too?) get it - and the scaly skin is clearly hard enough to give an armor bonus, so I suppose it should reduce damage as well...possibly +1/- DR for every draconic armor bonus, reaching DR 8/- at lvl 30. That sound about right?

I'm just throwing ideas around, based on your post. I think your ideas are really good and should be at least talked about and possibly compromised if people think they're too much, but then I might be biased because I think Epic RDD is well overdue an upgrade...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My summary:

• DR +1 per ac bonus (apply it directly to the draconic armor feat if possible) , reaching 8/- DR at lvl 30
• Fire domain spells, possibly given at certain levels...really needs a proper caster's input on that - I wouldn't know where to begin.
• Flame-weapon-like ability, giving (5 + half RDD level or 5 + Cha modifier, so 20 or so at lvl 30) flame damage to a weapon, 5 times per day, from lvl 20 RDD onwards. Shifter red dragons aren't spellcasters so don't get this ability.
  
• Cold vulnerability 5% for every 10 RDD levels.
• Frightful presence applied to shifter dragons as well (once I know what it does...)

[Khaine]

I like these ideas, in regards to boosting RDD power past epic levels.

In particular I like the following:

• DR +1 per ac bonus (apply it directly to the draconic armor feat if possible) , reaching 8/- DR at lvl 30
• Fire domain spells, possibly given at certain levels...really needs a proper caster's input on that - I wouldn't know where to begin.
• Cold vulnerability 5% for every 10 RDD levels.
• +10% movement and +4 (instead of +1) Dragon Breath DC for every 4 lvls of epic RDD.
• Frightful Presence of DC 25+cha modifier at lvl 30.

About the movement speed of a raging barbarian, you should know that it equals to about the same speed as a hasted toon, Lawson, since your barb is lvl 33+ now. :p
And I believe Frightful Presence is a large aura which causes enemies who fail will save to cower in fear.

I don't really care much for the fiery weapon buff idea, since the epic RDD would obviously be weak in melee. All these ideas do is give it some more dragon-like abilities (and weakness, as it were) to distinguish it from other classes. Not to give it power in melee.

I'd like to add an additional idea to the ideas of janngus and NLawson:

Give the epic RDD a gain in new spells learned at a lower rate than a sorcerer (but in such a way that 10 sorc/30 rdd would still get 3 lvl 9 spells learned), as well as scaling in additional spellcasts per day (same progression as spells learned, so it'd still get about the same number of spellcasts per day as a lvl 20 sorc).
For spell duration purpouses (buffs and such), it would perhaps also be prudent to have spell durations scale with a fraction of the RDD levels (but not above 20 effective caster levels, as they shouldn't last as long the more pure casters, IMO).

I'm not sure how the DC calculations and spell resist calculations would work for these spells, though. I would suggest making DC and SR calculations work as a pure caster, else the pure RDD would be completely gimped against anyone with a decent SR (monks and anyone with 32 SR from an item (seen quite a few of those)).

As for fire domain spells, ones that come to mind are Firestorm and Flame Strike (I think that was the name of it, at least... the cleric lvl 5 or 6 spell).

You might think "wow, all those special abilities/stats AND ability to cast spells as at a level 20 sorc's level". But the thing is, the fear aura is negated by most toons, as they have either fear immune on items, high enough saves, or mind immune from spells (lots of items cast clarity, lesser mind blank, mind blank etc, and there's also sequencers). The DR isn't that big of a stretch, since after all, it's 30 levels of a half-dragon. As for the movement speed increase, barbs get same speed (give or take), and monks get even higher speed. It wouldn't stack with haste (just like barb rage speed doesn't stack, it seems).

Finally, for the sake of not enabling people to make a potentially OP build, I'd suggest making it so that you'd need 10 levels of sorcerer to get all the spells and spells per day as a lvl 20+ sorc (so that for instance if you made a 16 bard you wouldn't still get timestop and such, and same with palemaster). The epic RDD shouldn't get level 9 spells if it also builds in 10 levels of PM for crit immunity. You should sacrefice some survivability for the power you gain from RDD. Just a thought.

[parknutz]

If you are going to add in all the bonuses there has to be draw back like everything else. I think a RDD should start out at 50% cold vulnerable and every 10RDD lvls that % goes down by 5%.
Everything else looks tight.

[Khaine]

50% cold vulnerability would kill the melee RDD builds, as they never go beyond lvl 10 RDD. I'd rather increase it by 10% for every 10 levels, meaning at level 10 RDD, 10% vulnerability, 20% for lvl 20, and 30% if you go all the way to 30 RDD levels.

[NLawson]

About the movement speed of a raging barbarian, you should know that it equals to about the same speed as a hasted toon, Lawson, since your barb is lvl 33+ now. :p

Yeah but I can't remember if it's entirely due to Rage and Greater Rage, or if there are other things involved.

And I believe Frightful Presence is a large aura which causes enemies who fail will save to cower in fear.

Neat - I like that...essentially it's the aura of fear then. I didn't know if it was that, or like the barb's terrifying rage, which lowers stats.

I don't really care much for the fiery weapon buff idea, since the epic RDD would obviously be weak in melee. All these ideas do is give it some more dragon-like abilities (and weakness, as it were) to distinguish it from other classes. Not to give it power in melee.

I know, but I couldn't think of anything else =S and I write things down as I think of them.

I'd like to add an additional idea to the ideas of janngus and NLawson:

Ideas of janngus you mean. I had something like one. And that was damage vulnerability.

Give the epic RDD a gain in new spells learned at a lower rate than a sorcerer (but in such a way that 10 sorc/30 rdd would still get 3 lvl 9 spells learned), as well as scaling in additional spellcasts per day (same progression as spells learned, so it'd still get about the same number of spellcasts per day as a lvl 20 sorc).
For spell duration purpouses (buffs and such), it would perhaps also be prudent to have spell durations scale with a fraction of the RDD levels (but not above 20 effective caster levels, as they shouldn't last as long the more pure casters, IMO).

have a look at this: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer#Level_progression
It details Sorcerer spell progression...
Starting at level 4, sorcerers gain 1 new known spell of every spell level every 2 sorc levels. So they start with 2 lvl 1 spells, at lvl 4 they gain a level 2 spell and 3 level 1 spells, at lvl 6 they get a level 3, 2 level 2, and 4 level 1 spells, etc, until level 20 when they gain 3 level 9 spells.
This stops at 5 spells known for levels 1 and 2; 4 spells for levels 3, 4, and 5; and 3 spells for levels 6, 7, 8, and 9.
To get the spell progression for RDD class, just stretch the one shown in the list by making the gap 3 levels instead of 2. It'll learn a new spell every 3 levels, and it'll have max spells per day at level 30 too. not only that, it'd combine with the 10 sorc levels to give a few bonus spells (up to level 5) and have even more casts for those early spells than a regular sorc would.

Also - basically you want RDD class to gain caster levels = +2/3 RDD level, which would give a 10 sorc 30 RDD exactly half of the duration of a 40 sorc for his higher level spells, and a few bonus lower level spells with half the caster levels, while still keeping his caster level capped at 20 max. If RDD was made a caster class, so that it's spells appeared in the book like any of the other classes that use a spellbook, you would have (with a 10/30 Sorc/RDD) 2 separate spellbooks - one with up to level 5 spells, and one with up to level 9 spells...but since the caster level would only go up +2/3 RDD levels it would mean the spells would only have a caster level of 20 at best for the full book, and 10 for the half-full one.

You might think "wow, all those special abilities/stats AND ability to cast spells as at a level 20 sorc's level". But the thing is, the fear aura is negated by most toons, as they have either fear immune on items, high enough saves, or mind immune from spells (lots of items cast clarity, lesser mind blank, mind blank etc, and there's also sequencers). The DR isn't that big of a stretch, since after all, it's 30 levels of a half-dragon. As for the movement speed increase, barbs get same speed (give or take), and monks get even higher speed. It wouldn't stack with haste (just like barb rage speed doesn't stack, it seems).

Not only do barbs and monks get the same speed - they get it at lower levels. An RDD would need to be maxed to get that speed, while a monk or barb would get it around lvl 15-20.
Fear effects like that are negated by most things yeah...though it'd be nice to have it, for some of the smaller mobs, to get them out of the way. I'd make it a 1 use per day undispellable ability (like blinding speed) that generates an aura lasting maybe 5 minutes real time? It's not powerful, but useful to have, and in keeping with the dragon theme - because when you see someone walking towards you and realise that they could kill everyone in a 10 foot radius with a sneeze, that's scary.

Finally, for the sake of not enabling people to make a potentially OP build, I'd suggest making it so that you'd need 10 levels of sorcerer to get all the spells and spells per day as a lvl 20+ sorc (so that for instance if you made a 16 bard you wouldn't still get timestop and such, and same with palemaster). The epic RDD shouldn't get level 9 spells if it also builds in 10 levels of PM for crit immunity. You should sacrefice some survivability for the power you gain from RDD. Just a thought.

Makes sense, although I'm not sure how you'd work it out...I'd have to know more about the coding than I do.

I was going to comment on the damage vulnerability Park suggested as well, but I was going to say essentially the same thing as you did Khaine.
Since taking more RDD levels is more beneficial, I'd say save the bigger drawbacks for higher levels...even 30% cold vulnerability is more than the PM's 25% divine and I think 10% bludgeoning (right value?) vulnerability...cold is more common than divine damage, though I suppose that's offset by the number of bludgeoning weapons available.


I'm done for the night, I think.

[nwnolan]

Hm... I am certainly liking this movement speed increase and caster level stuff. Kinda like a mix b/w monk and a caster. However, if we were to implement these things, I believe that this can certainly be overpowered, perhaps like a Dracolich Summon of crack.

The thing that pops up into my mind is something like the rdd pm builds and tensers. Without these bonuses, they already get like 80 AC. If you add Sorc instead of bard, so the leveling scheme would be Sorc 10 RDD 20 PM 10, well, think about it. They get +20 permanent moving speed, caster levels added to sorc, making them an effective 30 sorceror. You throw a Tensers in, giving them a +15 to AB, extra attack, another +2d3 STR on top of the +8 RDD's already get, and another +2d3 to DEX. Then you throw in the health increase, whatever it is, on top of the d10 the RDD already gets, and also the Discipline Bonus. So, from my understanding, you have combined the PM and the Dracolich all into one. High AB, AC, and you are now a lvl 30 Caster who will be immune to KD practically if you do the leveling correctly, as well as Critical Hits, Fire, and Paralysis.

Not to rain on this parade I think the idea is great! I think we might just be having to much stuff wanting to be added on.

[EDIT]- Read through your post NLawson haha. The 2/3's idea sounds a lot better then having it be full.

[NLawson]

Got an essay for you Nolan....but it's a good one:

Hm... I am certainly liking this movement speed increase and caster level stuff. Kinda like a mix b/w monk and a caster. However, if we were to implement these things, I believe that this can certainly be overpowered, perhaps like a Dracolich Summon of crack.

Probably yes - and nothing here has been tested for flaws yet... these are just ideas to be thrown around - we've yet to pick and choose what sounds like it would work without becoming OP, and we definitely haven't got to testing what can actually be DONE or not  I'm now going to grade your first read through of the posts...see how well you did.

The thing that pops up into my mind is something like the rdd pm builds and tensers. Without these bonuses, they already get like 80 AC. If you add Sorc instead of bard, so the leveling scheme would be Sorc 10 RDD 20 PM 10, well, think about it. They get +20 permanent moving speed, caster levels added to sorc, making them an effective 30 sorceror.

Actually...not using the scheme I worked out. I know it's not ideal, but I basically stretched the level progression so that the RDDs got new spells per day in the same way that a Bard/Sorc would...as two different spell books. Max caster level would be 20, and that's with 30 RDD, at lvl 20 RDD they wouldn't even have access to level 7 spells until 21 RDD.

You throw a Tensers in, giving them a +15 to AB,

+10 with fewer caster levels, assuming tensers grants +1 per 2 lvls.

an extra attack,

Making what, 4 attacks per round? With 10 levels of RDD pre epic that would raise ab by 7 and 10 levels of the other two is +5, that's 13/8/3 attack progression. With 20 levels of 1/2 progression that's another +10, so 23/18/13 at maxed level, +10 ab is 33/28/23/33 (tensers adds at max BAB right?), including say 13 str bonus, +3 from focus feats, and a +5 weapon, that's  and a haste attack that's 54/49/44/54/49 (assuming the haste attack goes down with progression too, I don't know) which isn't actually that good. For a crit immune tank with +14 natural ac bonus that's pretty good, but with only an effective 13 caster level (debuff easy) and very few spell uses. It'd work for a short time, but it'd have to rest a LOT.

another +2d3 STR on top of the +8 RDD's already get, and another +2d3 to DEX. Then you throw in the health increase, whatever it is, on top of the d10 the RDD already gets, and also the Discipline Bonus.

So averaged at 4 str bonus, that's only +2 to ab most times, +3 at best

So, from my understanding, you have combined the PM and the Dracolich all into one. High AB, AC, and you are now a lvl 30 Caster who will be immune to KD practically if you do the leveling correctly, as well as Critical Hits, Fire, and Paralysis.

Everyone and their mother is immune to paralysis thanks to freedom, you have to be seriously under-equipped to not carry one freedom item...also - this is 25% vulnerable to divine, 10% to bludge, and 20% cold. It has med-high ab (but that +13 can be dispelled VERY easily with only 13 caster levels), fairly high ac (but I know a build with higher...) and no 7th level or greater spells, and no epic spells, along with quite a few nasty vulnerabilities...it doesn't even have shadowshield or mind blank. Wilting would take this down easily.

Not to rain on this parade I think the idea is great! I think we might just be having to much stuff wanting to be added on.

There's actually not that much when you consider the 20 levels from 10-30 are pretty bare for RDDs...

So basically with a 10 sorc/20 RDD/10 PM you'd have a lvl 13/lvl 10 caster (2 spellbooks, going by the method I thought of in absence of a better one) who would have 57/52/47/57/52 ab maxed with tensers and haste (for 13 rounds...) very few spells to cast, no spells above level 6, a maxed caster level of 13 (and so NO damaging spells at high levels...try attacking a lvl 40 with a lvl 13 sorc and you'll see the problem), and high ac along with crit and fire immunity, who's weak to divine damage (25%) Bludgeoning damage (10%) and cold damage (20%) and has no major buffs (definitely no long lasting ones) and who can be blasted off this planet by Mording them (always Mordor a Tenser....) then hitting them with horrids, cone of cold, ice storm (OUCH!) and bigbys spells.

How is this much different from the 10 bard/10 rdd/20 PM that already exists? It has all those immunities, it would have fewer vulnerabilities even with these updates (10% less cold), higher ac (pm 20 is +12, RDD 20 is +6), higher ab without tensers (which could be cast from scrolls for all the good it would do) thanks to bard 3/4 progression and more attacks per round (1)...and that build is already there to make, it doesn't need any of the advantages proposed in this thread. Oh - and being a lvl 20 PM it would also have access to epic spells, since pm lvl 15 gives you access to all epic spells you have the spellcraft requirements for regardless of whether you meet the base caster requirements (like being able to cast level 9 spells) and although it's caster level would be lower (unless PM lvl is incorporated into caster level as well), it would probably have more spells per day since PMs continue to gain spell uses in their highest caster class at odd PM levels (yes that includes sorc).
Oh - and it would have UMD and tumble. Sorc, RDD, and PM don't get tumble, so they'd lose 4ac that way.

Nice try Nolan  but I reckon I win that round...unless I've made a stupid mistake somewhere.

Oh one more thing - that build I just mentioned would have 50-60% increase because of horses (I don't know what their increase is, I think 60%) so the extra 20% increase really doesn't mean anything, it's just to give wings something nice to do, since it doesn't stack with haste or horses.

[nwnolan]

With the new CEP thing coming up we will have to be getting ride of horses (from my understanding), so the Devs are trying to come up with a way to substitue. And yes it looks like you beat big bad Nolan. Haha  . Haha After I read through your post I agreed with it much more. All in all I am liking the ideas that are coming! what if you went Monk RDD? Can I say DM Speed?

[EDIT]- Add bard into that Monk RDD thing

[NLawson]

With the new CEP thing coming up we will have to be getting ride of horses (from my understanding), so the Devs are trying to come up with a way to substitue. And yes it looks like you beat big bad Nolan. Haha  . Haha After I read through your post I agreed with it much more. All in all I am liking the ideas that are coming! what if you went Monk RDD? Can I say DM Speed?

RAWR! I win! hehe 

Nah this wouldn't stack with monk speed in the same way that I presume barb movement wouldn't stack if you could change alignments. I don't think barbarians who become lawful lose their abilities, they just can't level up any more, so a monk/barbarian would only really benefit from the monk bonus, same with this.

Besides - with a lvl 40 monk with haste, who needs DM speed? Those things just fly.

On a side note...yay, no more horses 
I'm sorry, but I don't like them...they make people too fast, they lower the benefits from a barb's/monk's/haste's speed, and they cause quite a lot of lag, especially when there's loads of them dumpedi n one place (because people can't just kill their horses when they're done apparently, even though it's quite likely to be dead from NPCs anyway).

Anyway - I'm not so good at the whole "thinking up good ideas" thing, I just tend to latch onto other people's ideas (like Janngus here) and try to make them better (not that I could do much with those ones...already good), so I'll wait and see what else gets suggested or talked about, maybe in a shorter post, and try to expand on that too 

[pinkpuff]

Someone desperately needs to get a job.

[charliebuckett]

Someone desperately needs to get a job.

Sorta what I was thinking and 30 RDD would still be worthless

[janngus]

I'm happy that new ideas are coming, my starting ones have been improved, and we are advancing.

I'm just an old pnp DM, you guys are the ones that play this game way better. Besides that, I'm not a powergamer in soul, so I'm a bit displaced... What I'm thinking is what I would do if a player at my table asked for more things for his dragon disciple character... so feel free to say if something don't works straight out, improve it, keeping in mind that sometimes different things can surprise us, new tactics appear, players are very resourceful!

I think that we should only improve epic RDDs because non-epic ones are fine the way they are, and caster levels, while nice to have, would be a pain, if not impossible, to implement. What I think that could be done is a spell progression like blackguard's or assassin's, a feat that gives a fixed spell once per day.

Maybe we could give fire spells (I see they were well received), at a caster level 19 (Red Great Wyrm's Caster Lvl) and spell resistance at lvl 20 and 30, all at a time, something like a Greater Apotheosis and a Final Apotheosis. We could add some divination spells as a homage to red dragon's divinations.

Dragons get Blindsense, that we could translate in a blindness immunity... As for the draconic features (other than his spells, of course) I think they should be permanent, not dispellable, since they ARE this way, not become this way due to buffs...

Seeing your new ideas, I would change my initial additions for these below, keeping the draconic theme, what do you think?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

+10% movement and +4 (instead of +1) Dragon Breath DC for every 4 lvls of epic RDD.
+1 Dragon Breath use for every 2 lvls of epic RDD.
+2/- Damage Reduction for every 5 lvls of epic RDD.
A delay of 1d4 rounds (or a fixed one, 3 rounds maybe) between Dragon Breath uses.
Wall of Fire, Elemental Shield, Energy Buffer, Flame Strike and Firebrand (all once per day, caster level 19), Spell Resistance 30, Cold Vulnerability 15%, at lvl. 20.
Fire Storm, True Seeing, Delayed Blast Fireball, Incendiary Cloud, Premonition, Elemental Swarm and Meteor Swarm (all once per day, caster level 19), Spell Resistance 40, Cold Vulnerability 30%, Blind Immunity and Frightful Presence of DC 25+cha modifier at lvl 30.

[NLawson]

Your ones combine all the elements that I would add as well as some nice touches, so I'd be more than happy with them. We just need to get a dm to come have a look now and see whether they think anything is unbalanced.

And you're right, it is only really epic RDD that needs improved, and with these improvements, while it might not be perfect, it would still make taking higher levels of RDD worth it - especially if they got blindness immunity (say at lvl 20 or 25 so) since there are so many annoying blinding effects out there (not least of which is WoF which gets no saves at all, which has to be one of the most annoying spells ever) and immunity to them would be a nice incentive.

EDIT: Janngus is right, and I really shouldn't post when I'm tired.

Charlie - we're not trying to make lvl 30 RDD specifically worth getting. That would be nice but I'd rather take things gradually. Right now we're just trying to make anything at all over 10 RDD worth playing. once we've done that we can work out why the rest isn't worth taking and improve it so that it is.

To be honest, by the end of this, we might be so spoiled for choice (with all the different advantages to each class) that it becomes incredibly hard to choose what to build simply because everything has it's advantages and is equally fun. That would be a brilliant goal, no?

So rather than simply blowing us off....contribute to the ideas and help us make it worth getting. I dunno about Janngus (since my posts are pretty much all his ideas anyway) but I'd certainly feel all warm and fuzzy knowing that I'd contributed something back to the Module which makes the game so much more fun to play.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What we have so far:

• +10% movement and +4 (instead of +1) Dragon Breath DC for every 4 lvls of epic RDD.
• +1 Dragon Breath use for every 2 lvls of epic RDD.
• +2/- Damage Reduction for every 5 lvls of epic RDD.
• A delay of 1d4 rounds (or a fixed one, 3 rounds maybe) between Dragon Breath uses.
• Wall of Fire, Elemental Shield, Energy Buffer, Flame Strike and Firebrand (all once per day, caster level 19), Spell Resistance 30, Cold Vulnerability 15% (sounds fair), at lvl. 20.
• Fire Storm, True Seeing, Delayed Blast Fireball, Incendiary Cloud, Premonition, Elemental Swarm and Meteor Swarm (all once per day, caster level 19), Spell Resistance 40, Cold Vulnerability 30%, Blind Immunity and Frightful Presence of DC 25+cha modifier at lvl 30.

I would also include increasing the uses-per-day of those spells listed above by +1 for every 5 levels of RDD once acquired, so RDD 25 would get 2 uses per day of the lvl 20 RDD spells (not bad for 35 character levels...2 uses per day of those spells), and at level 30 they would get 3 uses. It might also be worth reducing the RDD level required for the second set of spells to 25 RDD rather than 30 (since requiring the RDD to be Character level 40 before giving them the second set of spells might be too much), and then giving them 2 uses per day at level 30.

I would leave Blind immunity, cold vulnerability, SR, and Frightful presence at the levels listed above, though. That way you wouldn't need to gain 10 levels in the class to get additional benefits, only 5 levels, and you'd still be getting the flame breath upgrades, and the DR and AC upgrades too.

[janngus]

Don't worry, don't take things so seriously! Let's be peaceful here.

Thing is... people have different ways to talk, different interests, humor... It's fun for me to think about RP ideas, while others may think it a waste of time. I like to read a long and well-written post, while others find it way too boring (I think no one ever did read my post at fan fiction!). However, one way or another, we are all here for the same goal, to have fun and play GvM.

Insults are mostly harmless, and the difference between an insult, a joke or a simple comment is in the eye of the beholder. Pinkpuff made an off-topic comment, and charliebuckett just gave his opinion... while I would like to see more and more ideas, not everyone feels like giving them, and that's fine, people are different!

[janngus]

Oh mighty DMs, masters of the universe and of our lives, please heed our call, say what you think of our feeble efforts at giving ideas!

[Terrorble]

+10% movement and +4 (instead of +1) Dragon Breath DC for every 4 lvls of epic RDD.
+1 Dragon Breath use for every 2 lvls of epic RDD.
+2/- Damage Reduction for every 5 lvls of epic RDD.
A delay of 1d4 rounds (or a fixed one, 3 rounds maybe) between Dragon Breath uses.
Wall of Fire, Elemental Shield, Energy Buffer, Flame Strike and Firebrand (all once per day, caster level 19), Spell Resistance 30, Cold Vulnerability 15%, at lvl. 20.
Fire Storm, True Seeing, Delayed Blast Fireball, Incendiary Cloud, Premonition, Elemental Swarm and Meteor Swarm (all once per day, caster level 19), Spell Resistance 40, Cold Vulnerability 30%, Blind Immunity and Frightful Presence of DC 25+cha modifier at lvl 30.

I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to say this without sounding against it, because I'm not.  I am just swamped in I don't know's.

Adding a movement speed increase is easy.

Increasing the DC for the dragon breath based on level is easy.

Increasing uses of the breath based on levels I'm not sure how to do.  It reads how many times to allow an ability from the feats.2da.  So it could be changed to 3 or 6 or whatever you want in the 2da.  If you change the value in-game for one person, then all players would have that same number since they all read from the same .2da (assuming you can change the value in-game).  If I can figure out how to do uses-per-day based on levels then we could really do some fun stuff with all sorts of abilities like Divine Wrath, Shadow Daze/Evade, Assassin abilities, etc.  Some of you might be thinking, but T, the shifters have abilities that are limited per day.  And I say, you are correct; however, they have a special script that defines that. 

+2DR per 5 epic RDD levels.  Another difficult one.  DR is added to DDs and Barbs by means of feats.  To create new feats requires haks.  I assume DR can be added via the toolset but only in the pre-defined amounts (5/-, 10/-,...) and those types would not stack with the types on armor/items like Barb or DD DR does since it is identical.

Adding a delay between uses.  That's a brilliant idea and would perfectly answer one of the 2 major components of the HiPS issue for NWN.  Again, I do not know this could be done but forcing a delay isn't that big of a deal.  Afterall, NWN is a spammer's game so why let RDDs break the status quo?

Spell resistance and cold vulnerability are easy.

Adding spells.  I think you can add monster-like spell abilities to the skin but they cast at the default casting level.  Even if you add in RDD level to the damage for the spells you still have the problem of everything resisting the spells or easily dispelling them because it considers them cast at the base level.  This is the same issue I'm running into with shifter shapes that cast buffs or use spells as abilities.  I've learned how to handle the SR part but it's going to be somewhat labor intensive.  The dispel portion I don't know.  I would luv to see it work how I want.

Frightful presence could be implemented via widget given to all RDDs of appropriate level... seems like it would work.  Now that I say that, I wonder if some of the spell related options could be done similarly.

So that is where we are at. 

[ollebroc]

There's no point in changing the current classes anymore. Sometime next year, as the current rate is going, we'll get new classes and possibly races.

Until then, make the best of what ya got.

[Sisyphus]

Cumulative ability bonuses and dragon-like abilities would have been what I'd have vouched for (as breath weapon and AC are already taken care of).

More const, str, int, and cha, for instance, would be sufficient for my taste.

Lvl 2:    +2 STR
Lvl 4:    +2 STR
Lvl 7:    +2 CON
Lvl 9:    +2 INT
LVL 10: +4 STR, +2 CHA
LVL 12: +2 STR
Lvl 14:  +2 CHA, +2 INT
Lvl 16:   +2 STR
Lvl 17:  + 2 INT
Lvl 19:  +2 CHA
Lvl 21:  +2 CON
Lvl 24:  +2 STR
Lvl 27:  +2 CON
LVl 30: +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 INT, +2 CHA

That's a total of 42 ability points by Lvl 30 RDD.
(18 STR: 8 CON: 8 INT: 8 CHA: 42 points)

Compare that with 14 ability points raised by lvl 10 RDD.

(14 * 3 = 42) : for 30 RDD lvls


Consider the sacrifice necessary for 30 RDD lvls.  the only skills you can maximize might be search, discipline, and not much else.  It's hard to be uber in 10 classes of anything else.  Hence I saved a comparatively whopping boost for lvl 30.  But it still doesn't seem enough.

Now give the lvl 30 RDD some interesting and seductive feats or abilities, and it just might be worth building?

[janngus]

It's fine that I don't knows appear, we understand that it's not magic that it takes to modify a class in Neverwinter! It's also good to see that our ideas were well received.

As for Ollebroc, I don't agree that there's no point in changing the current classes. Even with new classes and races, it is always good to develop something nice, IF it doesn't get in the way of priorities. It's not that I will spam in the forums and shout ingame daily "where is the improved rdd?", it's just an idea, that in time, if possible, should be developed and implemented.

[nwnolan]

Perhaps instead of changing classes... we could just go PRC? Woohoo tons of new possibilities there. Get rid of the Cleric Bard AA for instance and go for a Bowman Bard AA?

[Terrorble]

Well that kinda drops a bomb right in the middle of this. 

My individual goal has been to develop existing things so that they are more useful and fun; to work with what we've got.  That's why I support discussions of spell improvements and developing classes. 

Adding more mustard to a sandwhich with rotten meat may help a body choke it down, but there's a practical limit to the amount of mustard before you say, "I think I'll pass, or find something different to eat".

[nwnolan]

Haha that's a good way to put it. But... how do I say this. We have already added tons of stuff to current classes. What does PRC do to harm? To me, it premotes new builds and much more diversity. I am not saying to add all of the PRC stuff. Is there any way we could just add a couple of it? If this goes along with you Terrorble... perhaps we should make a new sandwhich?