Dwarven Defender's Dracolich

[janngus]

Well, the Dwarven Defender... Here he is a mediocre tank, with low AC for a tank, no offensive appeal, and his damage reduction only delays his unavoidable doom, right?

That always bugged me in Neverwinter. Let's picture the following scene:

A fort is being sieged by orcish troops. There is a rocky pass, and only one, that grants access to it. The situation is desperate, only mighty defenders can hold it, and keep the whole fort from destruction. The fort is the only defense that the city and the countryside behind it have against the invading horde.

When all appears lost, the fearless elite defenders arrive, to hold their ground against the orcish axes, spears and arrows. Their weapons and shields shine at the sun, and they advance, side to side, to hold the pass.

A group of dancing elven pale masters, clad in tunics. After hours of battle and dancing, they fend off the invaders.

Something isn't right here, huh? I think that the Dwarven Defender deserves a better fate. He must be the best tank around, considering that he doesn't even have crit immunity.

However, before writing something, I want to see what you people say. He gets a d12 HP die, the best AB... how can we prevent it from becoming a tank AND a hitter with an hipothetical upgrade?

[NLawson]

There are actually a few upgrades planned for DD, you can find them on the sign in Eru's lounge: things like increased Disc per 2 DD levels, increased regen per 5 DD levels...there's quite a few things but I can't remember them.

The problem is that it's supposed to be a defender, not a wall. It should have high enough ac to hold off most mobs (though I would expect a few bosses to get through it) and high enough ab and damage to take down those mobs without becoming so powerful that they can cut down anything that moves.

I think the way to get around this problem would be to include abilities that only activate during Defensive Stance mode. The stance means the DD can't walk around, but the problem is that if the enemy dies and no others are within range, the stance drops (so we might need to find a way to disable that).

I would propose giving them an ac, str, con, and save boost (like it has now) as well as the things on Erus sign, but also give it an AB penalty while in defensive stance mode. That would mean the DD can EITHER tank OR hit, but not both at the same time - basically an advanced improved expertise.

It would effectively stop the DD being abused to farm hard bosses, because while they can take the hits they can't do anything, and while they can hit well they die fast...so you'd still need a tanker or a hitter to go with them, which DOES make them versatile (they could fill two different roles in a party) - but they can still only fulfill one role at a time, and when they switch they lose the bonuses of the other style.

Also - while fighting, the DD does get sneak attack immunity thanks to Defensive awareness, but this is lost when he stops. Also - you can't get a critical hit on someone with 20 more AC than your AB, as far as I know, I'll explain that in a second. He's already a fairly good tank, but if his abilities only activate with the stance he can't abuse them.

[-firecracker-]

At present DDs get rubbish AC and AB - DR wont help if you are a critical hit target...even then I have my doubts against the DD/shifters (risen or construct) builds just because they can't heal themselves and still have rubbish ab/ac.

Personally - the only useful way of using the DD class is a Wiz,PM,DD as a DR tank (sure it isnt the best tank build), but since the mod wipe this has become a 'waste of time build' anyway which is why i have not bothered with rebuilding(finishing) mine - in the old mod I could load him up with some nice DD gear from issendor as well as some nice elemental DR items and just play the party tank to BaradDur/MM - not possible anymore. Issendor use to hold some really nice DD gear but as that area has gone there is little or no DD gear available and because the other two classes are PM and Wiz, good luck trying to find much melee gear that isnt restricted to barb, fighter, wm etc...

One last thought...DD stance is one of those things that breaks so easily too - an example being action cancel, another being hips...

DD is just one of those prestige classes that just doens't work at present...but thumb up Terrorble for the attempts at the improvement

[Terrorble]

I'm still confused and frankly put out about the DD script I tried a while back.  It seemed to lag the server horribly and cause crashes and I couldn't ever figure out why.  I was very excited about the HP recovery idea.  Maybe sometime I'll talk to Turril about running another test of it or at least adding the dodge AC, discipline and will saves.  I can do that without a heartbeat (script). 

Can't modify defensive stance with our current setup (see the other DD thread in this same forum).  Penalizing DD AB in isn't needed.  If you played one you'd realize why.

I like the approach janngus.  I think the imagery will help to focus ideas along the lines of what the class could/should be.

[locmer]

Ses has made a very succesfull DD/shifter that seems to be able to withstand almost anything.
Sure he needs a buddy to kill any invaders, but hey..

He's a Dwarven Defender, not a Dwarven Kill Anything On Site toon.

I mean ain't that the point of the class.
Why should we kill the idea of the prestige class by making it offensive.

I agree with Fire that DD's need to get their immune to crit from somewhere, but it seems there are some good options.

As for roles in parties, DD's or maybe the best option DD/shifters can fullfill a very important role.
Just make sure that the other members have abilities to kill something.
No point having 10 DD's attacking BD, like it wouldn't be advisable to take 10 wizards in there also.

I like Terror's way's of making classes more use-ble.
I only hope we can stay in character of what the build is meant to do.
So instead of focussing on making it offensive for instance, lets keep looking at the aspect of giving it better tanking capabilities.

Noruas showed some DD gear from outpost, I'm not sure if those are nuts, cause my french ain't what it used to be 

Appreciate the idea's nonetheless.

Cheers Loc

[sestitodc]

Ses has made a very succesfull DD/shifter that seems to be able to withstand almost anything.

Heh, you haven't seen me go up against ents have you