Faction drops issue

[Thiagow2008]

Ok I'm new in the forums, i don't even know if I'm posting this in the right forum but here is the problem. A lot of great drops from faction areas ( Gondor areas cuz I'm Mordor ) are just full of restrictions and it just can't be UMDed and this is just dull. Here is an example:



A really uber Bastard Sword that can only be used by Gonds and UMD is useless. So Mords are supposed to get a drop like that and give to Gondor char to use it ??? Something is wrong here.

And this is just an example, im sure theres a lot more items that cant be UMDed in Gondor areas and Mordor areas aswell.

IMO faction drops SHOULD be able to be used by the Faction farmer or we should start faction killing just to get the good drops ?

[Noruas]

At least you can try to trade it against a WK or a BD boss drop.
I have trade an evenstar sword from galadriel (good only) against a issenmouthe boss scythe.

[Thiagow2008]

Faction areas are areas that only one faction can farm it so if you are going to raid BD for example u go like 70% to get a good drop and that doesnt happen cuz when u get a good drop u cant use the item and that really bugs me as with other peoples i really see no point in making a Gondor area drop items that only Gondors can use and Gondors cant raid it just like with Mordor areas, only Gondors can raid it but cant use most of the good drops ? it shoud be backwards lol

IMO the least it could be done is to make UMD possible... most of faction boss drops with restrictions juat cant be UMDed and i have full UMD skill with most of my builds

[Nobutadas]

It makes perfect sense for a Gondor npc to drop a Gondor only item.  Why would a Gondor npc be using a Mordor only item?  Plus, this promotes either trading, or playing toons on both sides which either way is a plus.

[Thiagow2008]

Im not saying to be only usable by mordor but at least possible to use

[janngus]

I agree with Thiago. For example, I don't think it's a plus to be encouraged (I would say forced) to play a Gondor.

I would rather do another Mordor build than wasting time with a Gondor Farmer.

It's frustrating to get an item in a boss raid that took one hour and has a 0.05% chance of dropping just to find out that the friggin thing is Paladin Only and no UMDable.

Crap. Useless. U-S-E-L-E-S-S. I won't do a Paladin just to use it.

OK, I could trade it, but it is still very, very frustrating.

When I get an item I want to use it, not to think what could I trade it for.

And I'm not even talking about trading. I don't want it encouraged, for I think it's a vile practice. I would rather give my spares away to someone who can use them than hoarding them in some mule, in hope of a good trade someday. Bleh. However, I'm forced to do that, because I know that if I give Anduril away, no one will ever give me WK's Flail.

[Thiagow2008]

Thats EXACTLY what i was trying to say, you go raid WK for example, u stay 1 hour there trying to keep urself alive and at the same time trying to keep ur party members alive and trying to kill WK, and if ure lucky enough u can get him to drop his flail and ure even more luckily to win the flail in a roll and u try to use it and u cant cuz is for BG onlys ( i think ) so r u supposed to make a Mordor toon just to use an single item ??? and if u want to use that same item with some other toon ?? u just live with it cuz of some senseless restrictions ?? >:[

And about trading... well idk about you guys but i dont go for a raid to hope i can get an item to trade for some other item... i go hoping that i can get one that i can use it lol

[Nobutadas]

I know personally.  If I ever get a good item that is for a certain build, I would make a build just to use that item.  There are reasons that these restrictions are on the items, if they weren't, then there are toons that would become too OP.

[janngus]

I'm not against item restrictions. I'm against dropping useless items for the raiders. I know personally that I may make a build just to use an item, as long as it's a Mordor one.

Maybe not Good Only, Good or Evil Only instead. Maybe not Paladin Only, Paladin or Blackguard instead.

Get my point?

[Thiagow2008]

im not saying to take away restrictions but just to make items UMDable... and theres some items with such useless restrictions.. if a item would directly benefit a certain class i would understand to put restrictions but some restrictions are there just because of the npc who has it.. if aragorn was fighter/wm im sure that item would be fighter wm only

and im only saying about FACTION drops cuz MOST of the Gondor boss drops are pally/cot only and Mordor boss drops are bg only...

(idk if im right) but making factions drops more UMDable wont make some ppl OP cuz if you think this thru (itemwise) pallys, cots and bg are way OP

[Abimael]

Just out of curiosity, is that Aragorn's sword?

make a Mordor toon just to use an single item ??? and if u want to use that same item with some other toon ?? u just live with it cuz of some senseless restrictions ?? >:[

Yep, that's right. It might seem senseless to you but I won't even start how many OP builds one could make if there weren't items restrictions. Yours, for example, a bard/RDD/PM. Put that WK armor, that sword, Bigby's bane / Right Hand, Aragorn's Shield, and boon.

[Thiagow2008]

Just out of curiosity, is that Aragorn's sword?

yes

[janngus]

Just out of curiosity, is that Aragorn's sword?

Yep, that's right. It might seem senseless to you but I won't even start how many OP builds one could make if there weren't items restrictions. Yours, for example, a bard/RDD/PM. Put that WK armor, that sword, Bigby's bane / Right Hand, Aragorn's Shield, and boon.

I understand it perfectly, since I DM games... so I think that my alternative is reasonable.

Let UMD as it is. Just make Item Restrictions that allow a specific build on both sides. Not Paladin Only, Paladin and BG. Not Lawful Good Only, Lawful Good or Lawful Evil Only.

That would help a lot. I would love to make a BG to use Anduril. Today, I would only think "crap, an useless pally sword".

[Abimael]

If u make everything UMD'ble, you'll make bards stronger, and spam a hell of 39 whatever/1 bard builds just to use the best items in the server.

I partially agree that class restrictions are bad. I, though, think alignment ones are interesting because, knowing that there were no alignment restrictions, I'd only make true neutral to avoid getting smited and extra damaged by item properties. Knowing there is such powerful

The only  I see to even think about taking away restrictions is using what PnP done with items with good/evil alignment: give the character that is wielding it negative levels, based on his distance from the alignment the item has.

[Thiagow2008]

If its bg/pally only than items would OP pallys and bgs
If its lawful evil/good only than would be bad for certain classes since some have alingment restrictions
Good and Evil would be something to think about to encourage ppl to use more evil/good aligment, but would be bad for those who has several neutral build. Nevertheless its a step in the right direction.


But when i talk about UMD im not saying put 30 UMD and ure usig everything ofc not.. but make things possible. I have a toon with 57ish UMD and cant use some items. Maybe even if i get 100 UMD i wont be able to use it. Maybe ( for uber items like that sword ) a high UMD would be necessary so youll need to skill dump UMD when most of the toons only get 25ish    or    more items with UMD since i never saw one.

These are great ideas, cuz im tired of raiding faction cities and the good drops are pallys/cot/bg only, and im sure most of you are aswell.

[psalmanzar]

Restricting items to either good or either evil doesn't overpower pally/bg's, its merely a means of compensation for accepting vulnerability to smite. 

I think Janngus and Thiagow have made good points about how much it sucks to have an uber item that can only be used by one faction (i.e. pally only or BG only items).  Remove the class restriction and keep only the either good/either evil restrictions.  Doing so allows a Mordor to use Anduril with an evil character and not be forced to look for a fair trade.

However, If a neutral character can use UMD to use everything, then I think its unfair, the only "sacrifice" that toon has made to be able to equip things is to increase his ranks taken in UMD from say 27 to 43.  If some compromise is sought using the UMD avenue, then make it possible but very, very difficult.  For example make the UMD reqts for the best gear high enough that a 16 natural Chr toon needs to cap CHR and take ESF UMD; OR (if its already 40th) perhaps be required to fill a gear slot with a "ring of UMD" that does nothing but provide a skill bonus.  And for the dragon haters out there, this avenue ensures that the ubiquitous 20cleric/18druid/2monk won't be merging all his gear slots with ubers.

[parknutz]

I've already tried to fight this before and was shot down by the DM's. Their reasoning being they don't want power builds to have all the fun and wanted a more diverse group of PC's.

UMD was basically a non issue until crybabies got killed in PvP by scrolls. So any item that has a class restricion lvl over 21 can't be UMD. Pointless, i know but hey what can you do? Items were supposed to be scaled back after the wipe to try and create a more balanced playing field. That really hasn't happend here as their are some mondo magnificent items out there.(game changers) They reduced some classes to try and even them out as well all in the name of balance instead of fun.

[Thiagow2008]

about the UMD i still think is a better idea, cuz with Good/Evil only besides the encouragement of making more evil/good toons is still going to be "too easy"

with a high UMD ppl will need to have 43 UMD + some cha bonus + items + bard song ( if necessary ) but w/o items with UMD will be almost impossible to get the UMD (lets say 70ish) unless u waste a feat with ESF UMD but still is going to be too hard BUT possible.

i have 57 UMD or something like that with red plague all buffed with bard song i would still need +13 UMD from items to use the uber items but i dont think there are items with UMD in the server (if the UMD was 70 ofc)

[deathdude]

im pretty sure UMD only works every 5 ranks taken up to 40 anyway, just like tumble, so boosting it with song/cha boost and feats do not work.

There are other problems with restricting to good/evil only too.... there are neutral chars that arn't OP

23bard/10CoT/7Wm for instance (yes i know its my only lvl 40 char, only example i can think of atm), dies pretty quickly when its on its own, it can't be evil because it can't take CoT levels then, and that means a Mordor can't use this build at all, which means for cetain class mixes you are limiting the items to one faction, which makes them unbalanced

it also means that Gondor PM builds can never use the items then, as they can't be good alignment to take PM levels

[-firecracker-]

You can boost UMD by charisma/song - one of my toons needs a boost of so many points to use a good aligned shield that is under the level cut off cap - requires 35 UMD.

[janngus]

The original talk was about items being able to be used by only one faction, and in my opinion that's wrong, they should be usable by both.

So I fail to see Deathdude's point. They won't be able to use the items in CERTAIN builds? That's it? That's the whole point of restrictions. So that CERTAIN builds can't use some items. If you want to use it, do another build, as long as it doesn't force you to change factions to use it.

[Thiagow2008]

The original talk was about items being able to be used by only one faction, and in my opinion that's wrong, they should be usable by both.

So I fail to see Deathdude's point. They won't be able to use the items in CERTAIN builds? That's it? That's the whole point of restrictions. So that CERTAIN builds can't use some items. If you want to use it, do another build, as long as it doesn't force you to change factions to use it.

Hes trying to say if the alingment were Good/Evil Only than PM gonds couldnt use most of factions drops cuz they cant be Good just like Mords CoT cuz they cant be Evil

[deathdude]

yes thats exactly what i was trying to say, if items are restricted to good/evil only it also partially restricts some classes to one faction only (though only if you want to use faction items)

[janngus]

Sure. I understood and it's perfectably acceptable, by my reasoning. Not unbalancing, it doesn't make the build impracticable. They can't use the faction drops anyway already. So what if they can't use it after?

One can't have everything.

Just because people have builds that will be affected, it shouldn't cloud or influence your reasoning of a fair solution.

This kind of logic is what make DMs skeptic about players' opinions most of the time.

How can they be sure if the player is making a point for the benefit of all, or for the benefit of self? (no offense ppl, I know that's not the case, Deathdude only gave us an example)

Anyway, the point is, DMs won't lift UMD restrictions, they had this issue before already, DMs won't lift class or alignment restrictions, it's truly unbalancing, so what we can reasonably ask for is less frustrating restrictions and not ask for a way to use what we want. C'est la vie.