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Gondor vs Mordor  |  Gondor vs Mordor 1  |  GvM1 Players Forum  |  30 PM dracolich
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Author Topic: 30 PM dracolich  (Read 7345 times)
sestitodc
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« on: 28 January 2010, 21:39 »

Nobu mentioned it in my other topic, but I didn't want to go off topic, so I'm making a new topic to address/discuss that. I'm asking this in an entirely serious/non-sarcastic way: have any of the dms seen what a 30 pm's dracolich can do? With the use of just some heal kits the dracolich can kill the osg bosses Gothmog and Lesser Valaraukar without a problem. I mean, without even going into the 100+ ac with uncanny dodge the pm itself can bring, or the 100+ healing/heal kit he can provide, or the level 9 wiz spells (granted, only some of them would actually be useful given SR/caster level), the dracolich alone is pretty uber.

And now I'm sure Noruas will come along and say it's all fine because the dracolich can be dismissed by a spell (since he is one of the players with a 30 pm), wof is only cast in certain areas, and a smart/prepared player will never have is dracolich dispelled by npcs (and even if he does, worst case scenario, he only has to rest). And as Noruas already said "all build need weakness to preserve the game's balance," the one weakness the pm 30 has isn't enough, especially since it can be circumvented.
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Noruas
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« Reply #1 on: 28 January 2010, 22:03 »

he he
for you information:
1/ dracolich has been already nerfed
2/ dracolich can only tank slashing and piercing, she have high vulnerability to blundging and divine dmg
3/ dracolich is useless against any other Mordor faction boss, eomer, pelagir king, aragorn, baragor (he can kd her), dunland boss, cosairs boss, etc, i know because i have tested them all Smiley
4/ she is only good against some boss like galadriel, biglash, maynard, kerlin, ...

so what about construct golem dr build ?
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sestitodc
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« Reply #2 on: 28 January 2010, 22:19 »

In case you lost the ability to read, this topic is about dracolichs, not golem constructs. If you want to address any concerns about construct golems please address the correct topic.
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sestitodc
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« Reply #3 on: 28 January 2010, 22:48 »

In literally less than a minute I threw together a 30pm build that gets 105 ac, epic warding, epic mummy dust/dragon knight meat shields, uncanny dodge, etc. So, without even counting anything the dracolich brings, the summoner itself is already a decent tank capable of tanking most of the bosses you mentioned.
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locmer
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« Reply #4 on: 29 January 2010, 00:29 »

I think in earlier posts we discussed that summons should be an extension of a build.
I think with the new "updates" (nerf is such a filthy word  Azn) on the draco, that might have been accomplished.
Basically I don't care too much about it since it would basically function as a farmer build and if yer in party this draco ain't really friendly to all members with his spell casting.

It's PvP where this summon becomes a real pain. I mean try to take on 2 tanks of which one cast spells like a mad dragon and the other desperately heals his new found undead friend  Lips Sealed
It's just not my picknick I guess.

So I can imagine the Def's want the summon to be an extension for the build and not being able to do all the dirty work for the player.

I haven't played one and to be honoust I couldn't even imagine how to make em work for ya.
But Ses makes alot of sense imo.
I also assumed the build itself could already function as a very good AC tank.
So this summon would look like an added bonus, a sweet bonus I might add.

Anyways, I don't think the updates were all to bad since I still see peeps killin bosses with them.
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sestitodc
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« Reply #5 on: 29 January 2010, 01:43 »

Although I didn't mention it, the one I very quickly threw together also got access to 9th level wizard spells. Granted, most spells are useless, but there are a select few that are still extremely useful even with practically no caster levels (Mordor Disj/any spell breach spell and time stop being the first ones to come to mind). So even if you do manage to get the dracolich down to low health, it only takes one time stop for the summoner to get him back to full health :p
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Noruas
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« Reply #6 on: 29 January 2010, 08:45 »

Personaly I feel a lot of aggressiveness in some of your response sestitodc...
So keep cool, it is only a game...

My 30 pm summoner have only 80 ac because I have made the choice to get high constitution and dr feats.
My fight technic  is simple, a sneaky hellbal, then I tank and draco spam spell.

I dont need any timestop spamming, mordenkain disjunction with 4-7 level of wizard is weak dc 1d20+4-7 to beat the  mob dc 11 + caster level.
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« Reply #7 on: 29 January 2010, 08:57 »

Howdy,

I don't have a 30 pm toon and so I'd have to defer to those who have made such toons in GvM, e.g. Noruas, fire, thiagow, zoltar (fully leveled?) and others. However, as far as I have noticed and heard, the usefulness of dracolichs in solo farming has been dramatically lowered ever since the DMs adjusted them.

Also, I don't know about any of the bosses that Noruas mentioned (since *cough* I don't have a 30 pm) except for one. I disagree with Noruas regarding Galadriel. I have heard that dracolichs are vulnerable to divine dmg and since the evenstar does divine dmg, I give some weight to rumors that Galadriel is not so easy to solo-kill with a dracolich now!

I don't know about Lady Fell and her hammer of uberness, but a monk ... well, a monk can do very bad things to PM toons. Very bad. Also, with minimal discpl, a 30 pm toon even with uncanny dodge is vulnerable to a sneak's KD. (I wonder if a str based toon could equally KD a 30 pm (not his dracolich). 

Hmm, someone needs to get Endless to bring out Lady Fell with her hammer of uberness and have her beat on an evil dracolich. I bet that bludg dmg + divine dmg (excluding dmg from divine might) would quickly finish off an evil dracolich. If I am wrong, plz let me know.

ciao,


Lf
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-firecracker-
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« Reply #8 on: 29 January 2010, 14:17 »

A level 30 PM will never be able to tank the best of the bosses, Aragorn, WK, Balrog etc. The reason being althought you can get over 100AC on them, their discipline is rubbish as the last level they can take a disc skill is 20. I have managed to squeeze around 83 disc with my draco summoner using epic discipline and 3 other items that grant +10 disc and it is just not enough when these bosses spam KD and get their 20 hits in. You would need to drop two levels of PM for it to become a proper AC tank.

As already said the draco got nerfed a few weeks ago. Its stats are roughly 54AC from 64 and AB is around 52 unbuffed, was about 56.
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Thiagow2008
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« Reply #9 on: 31 January 2010, 10:26 »

u ppl are just saying that cuz u dont have one and u guys say like he can solo every area, the only bosses that i know he can solo is osg bosses ( mordor bosses ), thrall, galadriel, biglash ( only talking about the big bosses cuz honeslty any skilled lvl 40 toons can solo the tombs ).

and this is just ONE type of pure farmer build theres the already mentioned construct/DD and the DD/pm that also can solo stuff, they probably can solo even more stuff cuz u can change ur gear and boost ur resists when fighting certain bosses, ( u cant do that with dracolich ) so why u guys only complain bout the dracolich ?? cuz hes a summon ??

about the pvp issues a 30 pm is really uselles in pvp u just wont hit, tegnar has 39 ab lol and so what the draco kills u, when the summons kills a PC you dont get the kill, i dont even think you get xp for that.

imo dracolich is a farmer build and ONLY farmer, nothing else and its a big pain to get good drops cuz youll be alone ( i think when u have more party memebers in the area theres more chances to drop or im just THAT unlucky Sad )

and btw dracolich already been nerfed once or twice.
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Terrorble
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« Reply #10 on: 31 January 2010, 23:29 »

I personally am not that interested in doing anything to the dracolich.  This is not to refute sestitodc's good reasoning, but I find that we just don't need any more reasons to frustrate anybody.  People enjoy playing them and they have been through several phases of nerfing already (I know you're arguing they still need another, but hear me out).

The dracolich AC is down, they are immune to cold and negative and 50% slash/pierce and take other elemental damage as normal plus the vulnerabilites they have.  They do cast energy buffer but that can be breached or fought thru.  It's a strong caster, yep.  Lvl33 wizard in fact.  And it's a strong melee dragon. 

I realize with the healing kits, few things do enough damage to kill one.  (I think when I was making these summons originally I was gearing up to see if we could do GvM without healing kits and transition to improved potions instead - no more hiding in HiPS and completely rehealing, AoO for potions, we have more control over potions via scripting, taking heal skill would be "less mandatory" thereby freeing up a skill point for many builds, reduce the amount of tank healing that occurs which in turn reduces the need for bosses to do 300+ damage to everything and have enormous ab,...  I had a future talk topic on it called a Heal Kit World or something).

Noruas's comment about other builds doing the same thing is pertinent.  If we don't go in and kill bosses with a dracolich, then we'll make a 20cleric/18druid/2monk dragon and do it that way... and take less time doing it.  Stone golems and other nearly invincible tank types will always annoy builders, BUT I find that alone the stone golem generally requires another person to achieve the greater victories.  I am ok with that.

...a bit off topic
I do not regret filling out the epic PM summons with things that are good.  I do wish that I could achieve a better PM-based build implementation, but I run into time and know-how constraints. 

It would summon monsters via a widget that allows it access to all the summons it has achieved regardless of level.  Possibly allow you to summon up to 2 of them at once.

The summons would individually be handy but more of an appendage to the caster rather than the other way around like y'all mentioned.

PM levels past 7 or 8 would start counting toward the casting level of all arcane spells at a rate of 1/2 or 3/5 levels.  (this is a big one, but with our current setup I think this requires redoing every arcane spell in the game)

Maintain the vulnerabilities on the player skin or increase them with levels to offset the AC and crit immune.
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sestitodc
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« Reply #11 on: 01 February 2010, 05:38 »

The point of frustration for me was one night Nobu and I spent about a half an hour killing the two Gondor bosses in Osgiliath, because even Nobu's 75? ab wasn't enough to hit them reliably, and they did a bunch of damage to me, requiring us to exit and heal up. The next day I saw a 30 pm's dracolich solo the two Mordor bosses in about 5 or so minutes. Now, it's more the extreme difference in difficulty between the Gondor and Mordor bosses, even though they are supposed to be about equivalent in the level of difficulty(?), than it was the complete opness of the dracolich.

And even Loc's invincible tank went down at least once in our last BD raid (~10 people in total). Maybe if he had a Guardian Angel looking out for him that wouldn't have happened, but GA was busy leeching all the Barad Dur xp on another toon :p
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Endlessorrow
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« Reply #12 on: 01 February 2010, 16:10 »

TAnd even Loc's invincible tank went down

  Heh Evil
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Meatheadthered
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« Reply #13 on: 01 February 2010, 22:20 »

I am almost done building my 30 PM and i can tell you it is a PITA to level untill you get over lvl 30. About the PM soloing the OSG bosses, i assume your talking about HW's PM Wraith. it takes him 4 or 5 times of going in and out resting. Good job on the Mod and all the recent events, cant wait to get off work and see what the new update brings.

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-firecracker-
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« Reply #14 on: 01 February 2010, 23:54 »

Not played my draco build for a couple of weeks but the latest nerf/update has created a pretty nice bug...

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Terrorble
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« Reply #15 on: 02 February 2010, 00:12 »

I wouldn't call that a bug or anything to do with a change other than AoE spells actually work so the dracolich dispelled them.  Problem is, you were caught in the disjunction.
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-firecracker-
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« Reply #16 on: 02 February 2010, 00:24 »

Been caught in its own disjunction lots of times before (usually because as soon as any AoE type spell has been cast at or near the summoner it will try to get rid of it ASAP) and it has never happened. Well, there is another weakness for everyone to know.
« Last Edit: 02 February 2010, 01:03 by -firecracker- » Logged
Rodriquez
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« Reply #17 on: 02 February 2010, 14:31 »

LOL, people actually go through the PAIN to lvl pm 30 to see a dracolich in action. Cool, I remember Shin being the first and only one to do such thing in my era - and everybody thought him mad. Now, someone sees that it works in certain areas and people go "BOOO! No fair! He does things that my toon and  mate with AB 75+ cannot achieve so it must be unbalanced. Call the Nerf Inquisition! Pitchforks and hot iron brands!"

AB/AC builds are great, therefore there's probably still plenty about on the server. Don't go nagging like a lil boy when others have succes with new ways of doing things.

There, nothing personal, but had to get that off my chest. Rodriquez is off, have a nice day

p.s. if you see Loc online, tell him to contact me (RL: phone/sms/e-mail)
« Last Edit: 02 February 2010, 14:34 by Rodriquez » Logged
sestitodc
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« Reply #18 on: 02 February 2010, 16:52 »

LOL, people actually go through the PAIN to lvl pm 30 to see a dracolich in action. Cool, I remember Shin being the first and only one to do such thing in my era - and everybody thought him mad. Now, someone sees that it works in certain areas and people go "BOOO! No fair! He does things that my toon and  mate with AB 75+ cannot achieve so it must be unbalanced. Call the Nerf Inquisition! Pitchforks and hot iron brands!"

AB/AC builds are great, therefore there's probably still plenty about on the server. Don't go nagging like a lil boy when others have succes with new ways of doing things.

There, nothing personal, but had to get that off my chest. Rodriquez is off, have a nice day

First off, your entire post could be applied to people complaining about Stone Golems.

It's wrong to assume that because someone complains about something they are inherently incorrect. For example, I easily solo farmed the Balrog with a level 30 character for several months, and got complaints about it because "BOOO! No fair! He does things that my toon and  mate with AB 75+ cannot achieve so it must be unbalanced. Call the Nerf Inquisition! Pitchforks and hot iron brands!" Maybe I should have told them "Don't go nagging like a lil boy when others have succes with new ways of doing things." Or maybe the Balrog actually did need to be updated, and anyone who did complain was right to do so.
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Noruas
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« Reply #19 on: 02 February 2010, 17:28 »

Quote
Not played my draco build for a couple of weeks but the latest nerf/update has created a pretty nice bug..

It has occurred for me once in some month, so it is a rare bug... you are just unlucky...
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Rodriquez
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« Reply #20 on: 02 February 2010, 20:26 »

First off, your entire post could be applied to people complaining about Stone Golems.

1st off "In case you lost the ability to read, this topic is about dracolichs, not golem constructs. If you want to address any concerns about construct golems please address the correct topic."  Tongue
and 2nd: yes, my post can be applied to any post asking for balance and so can yours. Like good and evil, day and night, the one cannot exist without the other...

Just yanking your chain a bit heheh

Seriously though, while I understand the point to question balance, there is always someone who finds it unfair or whatever and reading your argument about how a rather silly build like a lvl 30 PM can do things that you and the AB 75+ (!!) dude could not/found hard did not in itself convince me of the point of your argument (but I logged in months ago, so I would not know)
30 levels in a class that is in most cases better left alone after level 16 max deserves to have a signifficant benefit. And let's face it: at caster level 10 max, the PM is really limited. Consider the epic dragon knight that a, say lvl 24 wiz and 16 pm can summon

edit: had to cut my earlier response short, added reasoning
« Last Edit: 02 February 2010, 21:30 by Rodriquez » Logged
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